Why wasn't the Northrop F-5 used in Vietnam for escort of strike aircraft

[FLYBOYJ]

I'd bet dollars to donuts that the Soviets did not know or did not recognize the US military's feelings about the F-5.

 

[Glider]

For once I would take up that bet. The F5E was sold to a hell of a lot of nations and someone somewhere would have let on about what the US and its NATO allies thought about the F5.

In addition a number of countries tested the F5E such as Pakistan without buying it and they are close to China, so I am confident that word would have spread.

A good number of NATO members flew F5's and the aircraft they faced off against was often the Mig21. So getting a good understanding of its strengths and weaknesses would have had a high priority.

 

[timshatz]

Think the Soviets might have also liked it because it reflected their own design philosophy. Build it cheap, reliable and effective. Pretty much what they did with the Mig series up until the end of the cold war.

Anybody know if the F5 ever faced off with Migs and what the outcome was?

 

[FLYBOYJ]

For once I would take up that bet. The F5E was sold to a hell of a lot of nations and someone somewhere would have let on about what the US and its NATO allies thought about the F5.

In addition a number of countries tested the F5E such as Pakistan without buying it and they are close to China, so I am confident that word would have spread.

A good number of NATO members flew F5's and the aircraft they faced off against was often the Mig21. So getting a good understanding of its strengths and weaknesses would have had a high priority.

But did the Soviets know specifically that the US viewed this aircraft as a "tinker toy," that it was not the best we had to offer although it was supplied accross NATO? If I read into the Soviet evaluation of the aircraft, it sounds like the aircraft gave then a scare if not something to really think about. "If this is not their best, imgine what their best can do."

Think the Soviets might have also liked it because it reflected their own design philosophy. Build it cheap, reliable and effective. Pretty much what they did with the Mig series up until the end of the cold war.

Anybody know if the F5 ever faced off with Migs and what the outcome was?

One shot down a MiG-25 during the Iran/ Iraq War if you believe the sources.

 

[steve51]

timshatz,

Iranian F-5 pilots made quite a few claims during their war with Iraq, with one pilot ( Yadollah Javadpour ? )claiming 5. Independent confirmation of these claims is very difficult.

The only engagment where both sides agree as to results that I'm aware of was on Sept 23, 1980. 6 F-5s were bounced by Mig 21s and one Iraqi destroyed two of the F-5s with AAMs

Tom Cooper, Farzad Bishop and David Nicolle have contacts with aircrew from both countries, as well as Arab air forces. Their information is interesting but is verbal accounts, usually not confirmable.

 

[drgondog]

Ditto -

Joe, I know it is a sensitive subject but Yeager flew the F-20 about 20 hours per week as a contractor to Northrup when they were trying to compete against the F-16 for international biz. Felt it was an excellent airplane.

 

[timshatz]

timshatz,

Iranian F-5 pilots made quite a few claims during their war with Iraq, with one pilot ( Yadollah Javadpour ? )claiming 5. Independent confirmation of these claims is very difficult.

The only engagment where both sides agree as to results that I'm aware of was on Sept 23, 1980. 6 F-5s were bounced by Mig 21s and one Iraqi destroyed two of the F-5s with AAMs

Tom Cooper, Farzad Bishop and David Nicolle have contacts with aircrew from both countries, as well as Arab air forces. Their information is interesting but is verbal accounts, usually not confirmable.

Thanks for the info Steve, it was something I wondered about. Understand it is all unconfirmable. Just the nature of the beast.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Ditto -

Joe, I know it is a sensitive subject but Yeager flew the F-20 about 20 hours per week as a contractor to Northrup when they were trying to compete against the F-16 for international biz. Felt it was an excellent airplane.

Yep - my father in law was working with the F-5 during that period and was "waiting his turn" to fly the F-20 until fate took over. he too thought it was a great aircraft.

 

[Glider]

But did the Soviets know specifically that the US viewed this aircraft as a "tinker toy," that it was not the best we had to offer although it was supplied accross NATO? If I read into the Soviet evaluation of the aircraft, it sounds like the aircraft gave then a scare if not something to really think about. "If this is not their best, imgine what their best can do."

I am as sure as I can be that you have it right. To Russia it was probably 'this can take on and beat our Mig 21's, the Mirages have done the same in the Desert, the Lightning can take on both of those, what will the F4 do? At this point I will pass over the F104, the one NATO aircraft which was second to the Mig 21.

To be fair to the F5, it may have been a sports car compared to the Formula 1 machines in the USA, but to the Nato countries that used it to replace F86's F84's it was a leap almost like no other.

 

[Matt308]

To be fair to the F5, it may have been a sports car compared to the Formula 1 machines in the USA, but to the Nato countries that used it to replace F86's F84's it was a leap almost like no other.

But a leap above a Mirage? Maybe. Maybe not. Perhaps it was the low cost that made it much more palatable for return on investement. I don't recall how it compared to other airframes from the time (Mirage III/V or Viggen), but must assume that it was relatively less expensive. And perhaps the commonality and parts availability were viewed as much more obtainable.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I am as sure as I can be that you have it right. To Russia it was probably 'this can take on and beat our Mig 21's, the Mirages have done the same in the Desert, the Lightning can take on both of those, what will the F4 do? At this point I will pass over the F104, the one NATO aircraft which was second to the Mig 21.

To be fair to the F5, it may have been a sports car compared to the Formula 1 machines in the USA, but to the Nato countries that used it to replace F86's F84's it was a leap almost like no other.

But a leap above a Mirage? Maybe. Maybe not. Perhaps it was the low cost that made it much more palatable for return on investement. I don't recall how it compared to other airframes from the time (Mirage III/V or Viggen), but must assume that it was relatively less expensive. And perhaps the commonality and parts availability were viewed as much more obtainable.

I think one would have to look at price, performance and cost to get a proper picture - additionally may countries produced the F-5s under license which was a huge perk in itself.

 

[Matt308]

additionally may countries produced the F-5s under license which was a huge perk in itself.

didn't think of that

 

[Glider]

But a leap above a Mirage? Maybe. Maybe not. Perhaps it was the low cost that made it much more palatable for return on investement. I don't recall how it compared to other airframes from the time (Mirage III/V or Viggen), but must assume that it was relatively less expensive. And perhaps the commonality and parts availability were viewed as much more obtainable.

I was thinking of a leap above an F84. If you were a pilot who had spent your time flying old F84/F86's getting a hammering in every exercise by the opposition and someone gave you an F5, you would think that all your Birthdays had come at once.

Its worth remembering that in a visual type engagement an F5 is no walkover for an F4. While its clear that in a Beyond Visual Range engagement the F4 holds all the aces most exercises had an element of VR combat due to the fears of losses to friendly fire.

 

[Matt308]

But the F-84/-86 were not the current day comptetition for a light weight fighter. That was my point.

 

[timshatz]

But the F-84/-86 were not the current day comptetition for a light weight fighter.

Funny thing about mentioning the F84F, I was at an Airport Holiday Party last week and met a guy who flew P51s and F84Fs. Said he was flying them when Phila International was the host to the ANAG Squadron. Told me the runway was only 5K feet long back then and it was tough getting the birds in the air in the summer (F84s were notorious for having long take off runs). Said the Squadron XO tried to take off with a full load in the summer of 55, ran off the end of the runway, through two pipes that they were using to build land for the extension of the runway (Phila International is built on a swamp that is filled in) and ended up sitting in the mud just at the edge of the Delaware River.

Said the F84 was so tough, the just repaired it all at the field. New gear and a few dings (clean the intakes) and it was ready to go again.

That's a tough bird.

 

[davparlr]

Funny thing about mentioning the F84F, I was at an Airport Holiday Party last week and met a guy who flew P51s and F84Fs. Said he was flying them when Phila International was the host to the ANAG Squadron. Told me the runway was only 5K feet long back then and it was tough getting the birds in the air in the summer (F84s were notorious for having long take off runs). Said the Squadron XO tried to take off with a full load in the summer of 55, ran off the end of the runway, through two pipes that they were using to build land for the extension of the runway (Phila International is built on a swamp that is filled in) and ended up sitting in the mud just at the edge of the Delaware River.

Said the F84 was so tough, the just repaired it all at the field. New gear and a few dings (clean the intakes) and it was ready to go again.

That's a tough bird.

Couple of comments running around it the AF during the F-105 days.

If you could build a runway that went all the way around the world, Republic would build an airplane that would need it all.

The F-105 had a runway sniffer on the nose gear, when it detected dirt, it rotated.

 

[Matt308]

That's a keeper.

 

[pbfoot]

Great aircraft it was just to short legged and I don't think there was a fix if you added xtra tanks the Hard points were gone , to cross the pond it took 8 air to air refuellings.

 

[davparlr]

Great aircraft it was just to short legged and I don't think there was a fix if you added xtra tanks the Hard points were gone , to cross the pond it took 8 air to air refuellings.

Yeah, I'm a big fan of the Thud, with all its limitations. As I've said, many a brave men flew into the jaws of Hell in those strong and fast, but heavily loaded, planes and many were lost in a vicious environment.