Wich was the worst nation in the war? (1 Viewer)

[pbfoot]

please don't neglect natural resources such items as nickle ,uranium and other important minerals that the us lacked plus the fact that your geographic location allowed the north americans the luxury of basicly threat free production the austrailians and kiwis were fighting for almost 2.5 years and most of their combat forces were elsewhere before the us giant was awoken to the fact the world was being threatened yes the us navy and usmc made the pacific ocean an american lake but the inward looking us public allowed the japanese the opportunity

 

[FLYBOYJ]

please don't neglect natural resources such items as nickle ,uranium and other important minerals that the us lacked plus the fact that your geographic location allowed the north americans the luxury of basicly threat free production the austrailians and kiwis were fighting for almost 2.5 years and most of their combat forces were elsewhere before the us giant was awoken to the fact the world was being threatened yes the us navy and usmc made the pacific ocean an american lake but the inward looking us public allowed the japanese the opportunity

And what are you implying, that the US should of jumped into the fray in 1939?

 

[syscom3]

Let me say it again.

Between Dec 1941 and Feb 1943, ANZAC help was needed.

After Jan 1943 (end of the Guadalcanal campaign and the roll up of Japanaese froces in Buna), the US so dominated the fighting in the Pacific that for all practical purposes, we won the war in the PTO.
I am not saying that about the ETO.

After the war when the generals and admirals sat down and analyzed what happened, it was obvious to all, that the offensive threat from Japan ended in the summer of 1944. Even the vaunted remnants of the IJN were going to be wiped out from qualitative and quantitative USN superiority. Japan was isolated from their resources, they were using their reserves, and it was just a matter of time before a complete collapse.

Once the Mariana's were in allied hands, every allied force south of there could have packed up and gone home because the Japanese forces were isolated and quickly whithering on the vine.

 

[plan_D]

And without the Allies invasion of Normandy, plus the many other actions the Western Allies conducted, the Soviet Union would have never been able to push Germany back. Italy was still of vital importance to the rest of the war effort due to the simple fact it tied up men and machine from the Eastern Front. Hitler was even foolish enough to send a s.Pz-Abt to Italy.

Historical records prove that the USN were giving breathing space in early 1942. The only reason they had the chance to conduct raids on Japanese terrority is because the IJN were in the Indian Ocean attacking British Commonwealth holdings. Five of the six aircraft carriers involved in Pearl Harbor were in the Indian Ocean in early 1942. The United States Navy got vital breathing space from that departure.

God knows why you're bringing the reasons of U.S involvement into this. The fact of the matter still remains that the U.S were not in the war until December 1941. And you're casting out the ten years before that as unimportant?

So what if the U.S dominated in 1944-1945? That's not the whole fight against Japan ...which started in 1931. And no mention of the British from you ...ANZAC refers to the Commonwealth nations ...the British were there , remember?

 

[pbfoot]

hey syscom theres a town in newfoundland canada named after you its called dildo

 

[evangilder]

pbfoot, it is okay to disagree, but let's leave the personal ttacks out of this. That is uncalled for.

 

[syscom3]

And without the Allies invasion of Normandy, plus the many other actions the Western Allies conducted, the Soviet Union would have never been able to push Germany back. Italy was still of vital importance to the rest of the war effort due to the simple fact it tied up men and machine from the Eastern Front. Hitler was even foolish enough to send a s.Pz-Abt to Italy.

Im talking about the PTO not ETO. Plus, once the allies invaded southern france, there was nothing the Germans in Italy could do to effect the outcome of the war.

Historical records prove that the USN were giving breathing space in early 1942. The only reason they had the chance to conduct raids on Japanese terrority is because the IJN were in the Indian Ocean attacking British Commonwealth holdings. Five of the six aircraft carriers involved in Pearl Harbor were in the Indian Ocean in early 1942. The United States Navy got vital breathing space from that departure.

I checked the TROM's Kido Budai, and aside for the three week period in the Indian ocean from the end of March 1942 to middle April, they were all involved in operations in the Central Pacific, off of the Dutch East Indies, or back in Japan. The fact none of them suffered any damage or lost hardly an aircrew indicates that they would have reentered the fight in the PTO with minimal effort. There was zero "breathing space" given to the USN.

God knows why you're bringing the reasons of U.S involvement into this. The fact of the matter still remains that the U.S were not in the war until December 1941. And you're casting out the ten years before that as unimportant??

The 10 years prior to the war in the PTO was irrelevent. Once we were in the war, we built up our forces quickly and dominated every aspect of the fight.

So what if the U.S dominated in 1944-1945? That's not the whole fight against Japan ...which started in 1931. And no mention of the British from you ...ANZAC refers to the Commonwealth nations ...the British were there , remember?

The Brits were in the CBI. I will admit they did a fine job holding the IJA, but it wasnt untill 1945 that you finally managed to clear them out of Burma. By then, the IJN was not going to ship anything back to Japan, so it was irrelevant whether you were in CBI or not. And as I have said, the ANZAC forces in New Guinie the Solomons did a fine job in 1942. Its just that the US had so much more material and personell that we dwarfed anything they could provide. And dont forget we also began to dominate the fighting in 1943.

 

[helmitsmit]

I think this is quite an hard subject as although holland were not a big power they made the most of there capabilities. Whereas Germany had lots of resources and therefore had a greater effect of the war.

 

[plan_D]

The Germans in Italy were tying up Allied forces, or looking at it from the other point of view we were tying up their forces. The Germans in Italy couldn't have changed the outcome of the war in Italy but if they'd been moved to the Eastern Front, who's to say they wouldn't have caused a serious delay on the Soviet forces.

Think about the time it took to move the IJN fleet from Pearl Harbor to the Indian Ocean, it's more than three weeks. That's breathing space. How do you expect the USN to gather forces if the IJN were still prowling in the waters of the Pacific the entire time. They were given a spot to gather together, one the USN needed.

Oh right, I'm sorry the 10 years China was fighting was a big waste of time and unimportant. If only I could go back and tell them that.

I didn't do anything in the CBI, I wasn't there. Again, I wish I could go back and tell my grandad that he and his buddies stuck in the jungle could just go home. After all, the Japanese forces would have just given up once Japan surrendered. Right because none of them thought the Japanese government were cowards and kept fighting anyway ...

 

[kiwimac]

It is possible to discuss these topics without personal attacks. The standard of debate in this thread has, generally, been quite excellent. Please leave the ad hominems at the door.

Kiwimac

 

[syscom3]

The Germans in Italy were tying up Allied forces, or looking at it from the other point of view we were tying up their forces. The Germans in Italy couldn't have changed the outcome of the war in Italy but if they'd been moved to the Eastern Front, who's to say they wouldn't have caused a serious delay on the Soviet forces....

This could be the subject of a whole different thread, but in Sept 1944, there would have been nothing the german divisions could have done to materially effect the outcome of the eastern front.

Think about the time it took to move the IJN fleet from Pearl Harbor to the Indian Ocean, it's more than three weeks. That's breathing space. How do you expect the USN to gather forces if the IJN were still prowling in the waters of the Pacific the entire time. They were given a spot to gather together, one the USN needed....

The IJN carriers were on the offensive throughout the first few months of the Pacific war. As I stated, they were stationed in the Central Pacific, they supported the invasion of the Dutch East Indies, they even spent some time back in Japan. I would be happy to post their movements for you, if you desire. You are assuming all six carriers stayed together as one rask force, and that is not the case.

Oh right, I'm sorry the 10 years China was fighting was a big waste of time and unimportant. If only I could go back and tell them that. ...

Why does the fighting before the US entry into the war have a bearing on whether we dominated the fighting after the start? Dont forget that britain was at peace with the Japanese untill Dec 8th.

I didn't do anything in the CBI, I wasn't there. Again, I wish I could go back and tell my grandad that he and his buddies stuck in the jungle could just go home. After all, the Japanese forces would have just given up once Japan surrendered. Right because none of them thought the Japanese government were cowards and kept fighting anyway ...

The whole point is the Japanese were beaten after we took the Mariana's. What happened to the south of those islands became irrelevant. Even the invasion of the PI was not needed. The architects of our Pacific strategy, King and Marshall even realized that the CBI was a sideshow and didnt commit much of anything there.

 

[plan_D]

You under-estimate the stopping power of German forces. And I wouldn't say they could stop them, but they certainly could have delayed that advance of the Red Army. But we shall leave it here ...start another thread if you wish to debate that.

No, five of the six carriers, including Akagi attacked Ceylon and India in the opening months of 1942. Those weeks of movement and action took pressure of US naval forces that were still reeling from Pearl Harbor.

You mean, after your entry. I am not forgetting anything, that is why I gave credit to the Chinese and Chinese only. Britain were brought into the war against Japan on the 8th and it was on the ground. Britain had to suffer more brutal consequences for it's ignorance than the U.S did for hers.

King and Marshall had no authority over the CBI. That was Mountbatten's sphere. The CBI and PTO were different theatres, and the U.S gave up the 10th Air Force for the CBI. With all the best equipment, including helicopters. They also provided the vast majority of transport services to provide China and those fighting in Burma supplies to keep pressure on the Japanese forces.

The U.S government constantly pressured Stilwell to open Ledo road because aiding China in the fight against Japan was crucial. On the global scale, the PTO and CBI were side-shows in their own right. As Europe was first but in the fight against Japan they were both just as important. U.S ground forces weren't needed in the CBI, the British Empire and China provided all the manpower they needed.

 

[Gnomey]

I agree pD, well said.

 

[Medvedya]

hey syscom theres a town in newfoundland canada named after you its called dildo

Just about as pathetic as it's obvious. Grow up - child.

 

[syscom3]

I looked up the IJN carrier movements on the combined fleet website
http://www.combinedfleet.com/cvlist.htm

Here is where they were for March and April 1942.

Kaga
5-Mar Operations off of Java.
15-Mar Return to Japan to repair hull damage incurred at Palau (non combat)
22-Mar Arrives Japan
4-May Repairs completed

Akagi
9-Mar In fleet anchorage in Borneo
26-Mar Indian Ocean operation
19-Apr Departs Japan with Soryu and Hiryu in pursuit of Hornet and Enterprise. The TROM is not clear when the Akagi left the Indian Ocean
22-Apr back in Japan

Soryu
1-Mar Operations off of Java.
11-Mar In fleet anchorage in Borneo
26-Mar Indian Ocean operation
18-Apr Departs Japan with Akagi and Hiryu in pursuit of Hornet and Enterprise. The TROM is not clear when the Soryu left the Indian Ocean
22-Apr Back in Japan

Hiryu
1-Mar Operations off of Java.
11-Mar In fleet anchorage in Borneo
26-Mar Indian Ocean operation
18-Apr Departs Japan with Akagi and Soryu in pursuit of Hornet and Enterprise. The TROM is not clear when the Hiryu left the Indian Ocean
22-Apr Back in Japan

Shokaku
16-Mar Left Japan
24-Mar In fleet anchorage in Borneo
26-Mar Indian Ocean operation
18-Apr Back in Japan. The TROM is not clear when Shokaku left the Indian Ocean.
19-Apr Leave Japan with Zuikaku for Truk

Zuikaku
16-Mar Left Japan
24-Mar In fleet anchorage in Borneo
26-Mar Indian Ocean operation
18-Apr Back in Japan. The TROM is not clear for when the Zuikaku left the Indian Ocean
19-Apr Leave Japan with Shokaku for Truk

Since Ceylon was raided on April 9th, they had to have been out of the Indian Ocean soon after that so as to be back to Japan by April 18th.

I dont see where the operation of the carriers would have relieved pressure off of the USN as by the time the allies knew the carriers were in that ocean, there was no time to really do anything about it to take advantage of the situation. Plus once they cleared the seaway off of Singapore, the carriers were only a couple of days to cruise to get to Pulau or Truk.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Well guys I am back from gunnery. Got to shoot up some shit from my door gun, was pretty fun, started a bunch of fires because they made the tracer mix wrong.

Anyhow I see I have missed a lot here in the last 2 weeks. I will just add this though:

Yes the US was the major force in the PTO however it was still an allied effort and I dont give a damn what others think about it. There were the British and the Aussies in the mainland Asia tieing up lots of Japanese forces. IT WAS AN ALLIED EFFORT!

 

[kiwimac]

Leave us not forget the NZers that were there and in the ETO.

Kiwimac

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

You are right I forgot them and the Canadians too.

 

[evangilder]

Welcome back Adler.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Thankyou, thankyou I missed you all!