B-17engineer
Colonel
Great info !
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OTOH other Allied types with generally better reputations fared as poorly in that theater and period. For example the Hurricane with same air arms, same general period, actually had a worse record, particularly against the two modern Japanese types, Zero and Type 1. Whereas strangely, the Buffalo did worst against the obsolescent Type 97, where the Hurricane's record was almost 1:1.
When losses could be tallied and claims assessed it was decided that since the outbreak of the (Pacific) war, 122 Buffaloes and 45 Hurricanes had been lost to date, including those destroyed in accidents or by bombing or shelling on the ground. Reportedly Hurricanes had been credited with about 100 victories over the island and the Buffaloes about 30.
That's a misreading of that source I'm afraid. My numbers are the cumulated results of actual outcomes given in that book combat by combat. Yes the book also summarizes the losses *to all causes* of each type Hurricane and Buffalo, Japanese losses *to all causes* and *claims* of the Hurricanes and Buffalo's, but you're basically saying the vague and general info given on that page contradicts the actual results combat by combat given in the same book! That doesn't workJoe B wrote
I'm not so sure of that. A fair comparison would be between Buffaloes and Hurricanes defending Singapore.
From Bloody Shambles p384
AAA also made the rather dubious claim of 100 kills over Singapore, which should almost be entirely ignored. Actual Japanese losses were at least 102 aircraft.
From these numbers one can see that Buffaloes suffered three times the losses for about 1/3 the kills of the Hurricane. The exchange rate against the Japanese for the Buffalo is about 5 losses for 1 kill, For the Hurricane it's a positive ratio of about 1 loss for 2 kills. This makes the Hurricane a rather staggering 10 times more effective than the Buffalo during the defence of Singapore.
Slaterat
I don't know were kool kitty89 got his info but he said that the buffolos kills were verified by the opposition. Untille some one can pull out some hardcore evidince I personily agree kool kitty89. Becouse of armore protection in world war 1 it would only take a couple of bulletes to make a plane unfliyble so thought of going throught most of world war 1 ,not to mention a couple foucker scourges, without taking some hits, that dosent sound right.
I also very seriously doubt the 102 claimed losses for the Japanese. During the whole 4 month opening period of the war, the japanese only lost about 250 aircraft in combat.
That's a misreading of that source I'm afraid. My numbers are the cumulated results of actual outcomes given in that book combat by combat. Yes the book also summarizes the losses *to all causes* of each type Hurricane and Buffalo, Japanese losses *to all causes* and *claims* of the Hurricanes and Buffalo's, but you're basically saying the vague and general info given on that page contradicts the actual results combat by combat given in the same book! That doesn't work
Nor is there any reason to just consider Singapore,
The worst? I'd say it's the Polikarpov I-15. 2,200 were lost in the first week of German invasion of Russia in June 1941.
Actual Japanese losses over Singapore were at least 102 aircraft, that's from Japanese sources. The 3rd Composite Air Division suffered total losses from all causes of 331 aircraft form the start of the war to the fall of Singapore.
Bloody Shambles p385.
At the outbreak of the Pacific War, the JAAF consisted of five hikoshidans (air divisions) with a total of about 1,500 aircraft. One of these was assigned to home defense, another to Manchuria, and a third to China, leaving two to go on the offensive in the South Pacific. The 5th Hikoshidan took part in the invasion of the Philippines, its heavy bombers flying from Taiwan to hit targets in northern Luzon, while its fighters and light bombers operated from airfields seized in the opening days of the war. When U.S. and Filipino forces were driven back upon the Bataan Peninsula, most of the 5th Hikoshidan returned to Taiwan for reassignment (most were initially sent back to China, from where they had been drawn in the first place).
Meanwhile, the 3rd Hikoshidan operated against British Commonwealth forces in Malaya, along with three sentais (squadrons) detached from the 5th. They were based in French Indochina until fighting began, afterward moving to bases seized in Thailand and Malaya.
The 3rd Hikoshidan (as reinforced) had a total air strength of 357 A/C at the start of the campaign, however, one of the four Hikodans (Air brigades) that were constiuent to the division (the 10th), plus two additional Chutai (Air regiment, or more commonly, Air Wing) being the 60th and the 98th of the 7th Hikodan which followed some days after the official movement orders, which were issued about 21-12-41, were detached for operations into Burma. As the majority of the air division up to that point had not been able to come to grips with the allies, because of a combination of short range, and a lack of operational air bases in Malaya, until the middle to end of December, it is just impossible for any great level of attrition to have occurred in anything but the long range bombers and fighters that were the only units capable of reaching Malya from IndoChina. Since it was the LR aviation bomber elements mostly that redeployed to Burma front, and these units had not suffered great attrition since the outbreak of the war, it is highly unlikley that the JAAF had suffered any significant losses at all over Malaya up to that point...perhaps 30 aircraft at maximum. The 1st line fighters were retained in Malaya for the time being, and this subsequently led to very heavy losses over burma for the Bomber formations sent there. The AVG had a field day over rangoon, but thats a different story....
That detachments for Burma amounted to 172 aircraft of the peacetime establishment, but by the time the deploymewnts actually occurred, this figure had been reduced to a fraction over 150 aircraft, 91 departing on the 22nd December, and the rest departing about the 26th. So, in summary, the 48% of the force structure of 3rd Hikoshidan had suffered just 20 losses in 14 days of a campaign that lasted 7 weeks (there was no organized air resistance after the 30 January 1942). So effectively what your "Japanese" source is saying is that the remainder of the force remaining in Malaya, suffered catastrophic losses to the force structure, amounting to a casualty rate of 168% of the remainder left in Malaya.......yeah right
I suggest you cross check your sources
"That no warplanes appeared over Rangoon until December 23 was a tribute to the resistance put up by Commonwealth air forces in Malaya: only after the situation was well in hand there did General Michio Sugawara make his first move against Burma."
what about the CR 42 built by good ol Mussolini? it was outdated before the great war
what about the CR 42 built by good ol Mussolini? it was outdated before the great war