Would WWII Australian public opinion be affected by a Japanese commando attack?

[Soren]

Here's a picture of 3inch British WW1 mortar team:

 

[Freebird]

Freebird,

Getting the equipment ashore wouldn't prove a problem at all, just load up in rubber boats or have a local fisher boat come get it.
.

I would agree, but having some agents bring trucks to the landing site would help to keep the operation undetected longer, as it would save the commando's the trouble of comandeering trucks, with possible discovery. And as long as your commando's are landing on the US mainland, instead of attacking some coastal town, why not have them drive to within a couple of miles of a US airbase or Navy port and set up a mortar attack?

 

[Soren]

Freebird,

I agree that a truck standing ready at the shore would make it easier, but it wouldn't make it stealthier. I actually best like the idea of multiple rubber boats coming ashore at night, the men quickly unloading making a perimeter and then the equipmnt is sailed in.

Also it isn't smart to commandeer native vehicles at any time until the night of the attack itself. The reason being that when people go missing there are going to be people looking for these, possibly including the native authorities.

 

[Glider]

You are completely and utterly wrong about the FG-42 Glider!

The FG-42 I-II both used the full power 7.92x57mm round, and both versions were excellent weapons, version No.1 just proved too expensive to produce. And they were not found too weak at all, you're just making that up. Both versions handled the 7.92x57mm easily and both were VERY rugged and reliable weapons, and extremely precise.

Your right about the same round I was wrong on that point but your wrong about the first version being robust. It was to weak.

Modern Firearms - FG-42 automatic rifle

 

[Freebird]

Freebird,

I agree that a truck standing ready at the shore would make it easier, but it wouldn't make it stealthier. I actually best like the idea of multiple rubber boats coming ashore at night, the men quickly unloading making a perimeter and then the equipmnt is sailed in.

Also it isn't smart to commandeer native vehicles at any time until the night of the attack itself. The reason being that when people go missing there are going to be people looking for these, possibly including the native authorities.

Well I meant it would be more stealthy for the reason that you just stated, no missing people. I would agree with Glider, the commandos should target infrastructure or military bases, and by moving quickly away from the coast they reduce the chance of being surrounded by roadblocks etc., and could move to find more visible targets. Blowing a dam for example would be a huge propaganda event.

You need something more to be effective, continual small strikes that can cause significant damage, that happen again and again, spread uncertainty.
Targets should be infrastructure based, water pumping stations, power lines, fuel pipelines, bridges, almost anything that impacts the civilian population. Anything that makes them question their goverment and what they are being told.

Attacks would be best spread over the coast forcing the defenders to spread their resources and reducing the risk to the attackers

 

[Soren]

Your right about the same round I was wrong on that point but your wrong about the first version being robust. It was to weak.

Modern Firearms - FG-42 automatic rifle

And thus you found the worst possible source on the FG-42, no surprise.

The FG-42 Version No.1 is NOT weak, it is a very robust reliable weapon, however it was too expensive and thus Version No.2 using more stamped parts was designed.

Both versions easily handled the 7.92x57mm round, were extremely accurate, easy to wield, had a high rate of fire and were easy to control in bursts and if prone also in full auto. The smart muzzle brake design decreased the recoil allot.

Both versions of the FG-42 were loved by the FallschirmJägers who ordered that as many as possible to be made available.

Here some reliable and good internet sources on the weapon (Otherwise you should by the book Fallschirmjäger: German Paratrooper 1935-45, which explains how much this weapon was loved by the FallschirmsJägers):
Home
FG42.us

In short the FG-42 was along with the MG-42 StG.44 one of the best and most advanced smallarms of WW2, highly regarded by gun experts to this day.

 

[Glider]

I will leave this now with the thought that you are talking about many tons of equipment, being manually carried ashore in inflatable boats. Plus at least a hundred men.
Has anyone any idea how many Submarines will be needed? Or how long it will take?

The ammunition is not been considered. The nice pictures shown by Soren show a WW1 3in mortar team with no ammunition and no personal packs, a German WW2 81mm team with about 6 rounds and no personal packs. A German 120mm Mortar that apparantly can be carried by 4 men, it weighs over 600lb thats over 150lb a man with no personal packs and no ammo that weighs 36lb a shell!!
Of course It has been claimed that you can put all the 120mm in a truck. Can anyone name any army, at any time, that has ever put more than 1x120mm mortar in any truck/APC, or any other form of transport. Even today when the weapons weigh a lot less than they did in WW2?

My money is on the defenders all they need is one aircraft with a radio. The subs will not come back with an aircraft in the air. The Troops will run out of fuel and food and be easily spotted in those numbers. Then they will be on their own.

 

[pbfoot]

I will leave this now with the thought that you are talking about many tons of equipment, being manually carried ashore in inflatable boats. Plus at least a hundred men.
Has anyone any idea how many Submarines will be needed? Or how long it will take?

The ammunition is not been considered. The nice pictures shown by Soren show a WW1 3in mortar team with no ammunition and no personal packs, a German WW2 81mm team with about 6 rounds and no personal packs. A German 120mm Mortar that apparantly can be carried by 4 men, it weighs over 600lb thats over 150lb a man with no personal packs and no ammo that weighs 36lb a shell!!
Of course It has been claimed that you can put all the 120mm in a truck. Can anyone name any army, at any time, that has ever put more than 1x120mm mortar in any truck/APC, or any other form of transport. Even today when the weapons weigh a lot less than they did in WW2?

My money is on the defenders all they need is one aircraft with a radio. The subs will not come back with an aircraft in the air. The Troops will run out of fuel and food and be easily spotted in those numbers. Then they will be on their own.

Couldn't say it better
I was going to ask what they are smoking and where can I get some

 

[Soren]

Glider,

You have only shown that you yourself have no idea.

The picture of the 3 man FJ mortar team clearly shows both personal pack, ammunition pouches etc etc. The FallschirmJäger like the Wehrmacht soldier carried his food provisions in a tubular canister on his back, while cleaning kits, ammunition, personal belongings etc etc were stuffed into the many pockets.

And like you yourself pointed out the mortars of today are no lighter than those used back then, and guess what today the std. mortar team is the same 3 man one, even the heavy 120mm mortars are assigned 3 man teams.

US 120mm mortar team:

 

[Freebird]

Glider,

You have only shown that you yourself have no idea.

Hey, lets keep the discussion positive....

I will leave this now with the thought that you are talking about many tons of equipment, being manually carried ashore in inflatable boats. Plus at least a hundred men.
Has anyone any idea how many Submarines will be needed? Or how long it will take?

The ammunition is not been considered. .

Soren I think Glider is right about the difficulty, I don't think inflatable boats would be the best method.

I think the Japanese might have to use subs, if a
landing men in Australia, simply because the country was at war and more alert.

For a German commando attack on the US I think a cargo freighter would be the best transport. Since the Brandenburgers would be attacking targets in the US East Coast, they could send the equipment by cargo ship, of neutral flag {Vichy or Spanish} Then if the ship was stopped by the Royal Navy the cargo would appear to be munitions being sent to re-supply some of the colonies. There was no embargo on outbound arms, only inboud to Germany, IIRC.

The German equipment could be painted with instructions in French - {insertez le bombe ici } Somewhere near the Americas the commando team could be put aboard the freighter from a U-boat or two. The freighter could either land at night in some small port, or else the equipment could be transferred to a longboat or cutter. Either way there should be some fifth-column agents ready with trucks to take them off at the port or pier. Another good option would be to transfer the cargo to a fishing boat, as a ship of this type would not be suspicious if unloading cargo in the middle of the night.

The appearence of a cargo freighter would not raise any suspicions, whereas if anyone noticed the U-boat unloading cargo at night then the whole cover would be blown

 

[Soren]

Well it all depends on where the cargo is unloaded.

My suggestion is at an unbusy shore line, up to 10 km away from target area. At 0100 or 0200 hours there are hardly going to be anyone present at such a place, a place where someone might occasionally take a stroll with their dog during the day.

The way it would work is as follows:

0100 hours, the Uboat(s) raises up its telescope and scans the shoreline, and if the weather is good the operation starts. The Uboat(s) surfaces, the commandos bring up and inflate their rubber boats. Once this is done, a 5 man team sets away for the shore to check it out. If the coast is clear the 5 man team signals a go ahead and the equipment is brought up out of the Uboat(s) and into rubber boats for themselves. These rubber boats contain the equipment only and are tied to the other rubber boats containing the commandos, thus being towed ashore.

Once ashore the equipment is hurridly moved up to the nearest densly vegetated area. The rubber boats are then deflated and dug down at a marked position.

The commandos have now landed and can proceed to find establish a good central hiding defensive position.

 

[Freebird]

Well it all depends on where the cargo is unloaded.

My suggestion is at an unbusy shore line, up to 10 km away from target area. At 0100 or 0200 hours there are hardly going to be anyone present at such a place, a place where someone might occasionally take a stroll with their dog during the day.

Once ashore the equipment is hurridly moved up to the nearest densly vegetated area. The rubber boats are then deflated and dug down at a marked position.

The commandos have now landed and can proceed to find establish a good central hiding defensive position.

If you were landing 50 commando's with the equipment you listed what would be the total weight? How much ammo would they need to bring for a month's operation? Were the Brandenburgers trained to improvise explosives? {ie diesel fertilizer, like the O.K. city bombing}

 

[Glider]

Glider,

You have only shown that you yourself have no idea.

The picture of the 3 man FJ mortar team clearly shows both personal pack, ammunition pouches etc etc. The FallschirmJäger like the Wehrmacht soldier carried his food provisions in a tubular canister on his back, while cleaning kits, ammunition, personal belongings etc etc were stuffed into the many pockets.

And like you yourself pointed out the mortars of today are no lighter than those used back then, and guess what today the std. mortar team is the same 3 man one, even the heavy 120mm mortars are assigned 3 man teams.

US 120mm mortar team:

I obviously don't know what I am talking about. I didn't realise that you could get food for at least 4 days, tent, sleeping gear, foul weather gear, water canteen, emergency escape kit, personal weapon, ammo, personal first aid kit and the other bits and pieces that soldiers take into battle in those pockets. My mistake .

By the way what was in your pack when you carrying the 35kg load you frequently mentioned.

 

[Soren]

If you were landing 50 commando's with the equipment you listed what would be the total weight? How much ammo would they need to bring for a month's operation? Were the Brandenburgers trained to improvise explosives? {ie diesel fertilizer, like the O.K. city bombing}

The Brandenburgers were experts at making explosives, there being experts within each field in the company.

The total weight of all the equipment, including the equipment the commandos had to carry on themselves makes up quite a few tons of equipment. However most of the equipment would be in containers like below so they are easy to move once ashore:

The artillery heavy weapons containers would need their own rubber boats, probably five to six boats. These are tied to the boats manned by the commandos and are then towed to shore. When ashore the equipment is hurridly moved up to the nearest vegetated area, there being no reason to risk anything.

As far as the equipment of the individual soldier, well this would consist of the heavy FallschirmJäger field kit, with perhaps a few extra accessories. The kit consists of all the things the soldier would need; Field cleaning kit, water bottle + canteen (In one), food / gasmask container, bread bag, survival hygiene kit (in belt pouch), trench shovel, BUND German multipurpose paratrooper knife, lighter, multiple leg chest pockets for various equipment (maps, personal items etc) and etc etc..

Some pictures of the FallschirmJägers:

And some pictures of the Brandenburgers:

 

[Emac44]

I have no doubt Soren you find this an exciting idea to land Brandenburg Elite Troops on Australian Soil in 1942 and equip them as such to form a hit and run Commando Troop. Then deploy them with the amount of Munitions Equipment and Food to sustain them. You mentioned they would be either secreted by Submarine or Long Range Amphib Aircraft

My question is of logistics military intelligence and other scenerios you may have overlooked
1 Getting the men in first place to be on just how many submarines. Between 75 to 150 Troops to be conveyed?
2 Logistics in Travel over 12,000 Miles across and into 4 Oceans Mediterrian Atlantic Indian or Pacific without being discovered enroute. And I believe you may have overlooked such a large covert operation would have attracted some ones observation or attention. The British at least had Intelligence Operatives working in Occupied Europe . And depending on whence you launch the attack on Australian Mainland?
3 And one question that nagged me with your scenerio Soren was this. I presume that German Military Radio Traffic and Military Codes were broken by MI5 and MI6. Not just German Armys but also Naval Codes as well. Do you think the formation of such a an attack could be kept of the Military Radio Nets or had been on Abwer intelligence sources without being intercepted by the Allies before German Commandos even left Germany. Now if I remember the Abwer Codes had been broken by British Intelligence.
4 The above concerns I have mentioned is even before the Elite German Troops had even left Germany. The security to launch this escapade would have to be very stringent and extreme without the whole possiblity that the Allies wouldn't have stumbled across it.
5 If the German Elite Commandos had come say from Japan it would be possible. But I am going to say these German Elite Troops have come straight from a European Theatre of War and hence the above problems would surface
6 And I would also say that British Intelligence would have already passed on the suppossed German Commando Plan to Australian Intelligence by this stage. If the British Intelligence Service of M15 and MI6 hadn't already discovered it by various means I have already eluded to. And as such Soren the case would be that the German Commando Raid would be intercepted if not long before leaving Europe or Enroute or even of the Australian Coastline.

Your scenerio speaks well of German Elite Troops but leaves out to many other scenerios without consideration of
1 British and Commonwealth Military and Covert Operations discovering the German Plan
2 Transport and Logistics over 12,000 miles
3 Down Playing Allied Responses whilst your Elite German Troops are enroute
4 And the size of this supposive force you wish to employ. With the above problems of Transportation and logistic.
5 And of course another problem would be refuelling the Submaries enroute and all these vessels enroute to Australia. Can't use either the Suez or Panama Canals as they are both controlled by the Allies. So the Submarirines Refuelling vessels or ships have to pass the areas of Sth Africa and South America and again hopefuly no detection would occur or disasters enroute by natural events like bad weather storms or other hazardous conditions to shipping let alone during war time conditions to deal with

 

[Freebird]

I have no doubt Soren you find this an exciting idea to land Brandenburg Elite Troops

I'm afraid that I'm mostly responsible for this unpleasant scenario...

My question is of logistics military intelligence and other scenerios you may have overlooked
1 Getting the men in first place to be on just how many submarines. Between 75 to 150 Troops to be conveyed?
2 Logistics in Travel over 12,000 Miles across and into 4 Oceans Mediterrian Atlantic Indian or Pacific without being discovered enroute. And I believe you may have overlooked such a large covert operation would have attracted some ones observation or attention. The British at least had Intelligence Operatives working in Occupied Europe . And depending on whence you launch the attack on Australian Mainland?

I was actually thinking that this would be a coordinated attack by both Japan Germany, with the Japanese attacking Pacific targets the Germans against the Atlantic ones.

3 And one question that nagged me with your scenerio Soren was this. I presume that German Military Radio Traffic and Military Codes were broken by MI5 and MI6. Not just German Armys but also Naval Codes as well. Do you think the formation of such a an attack could be kept of the Military Radio Nets or had been on Abwer intelligence sources without being intercepted by the Allies before German Commandos even left Germany. Now if I remember the Abwer Codes had been broken by British Intelligence.
4 The above concerns I have mentioned is even before the Elite German Troops had even left Germany. The security to launch this escapade would have to be very stringent and extreme without the whole possiblity that the Allies wouldn't have stumbled across it.

Quite true. But AFAIK, the Allies lost the ability to read the transmissions in Oct/Nov 41, with the new code, and more problems in Feb '42 with the introduction of the 5 wheel enigma. If the operation is planned sent out with instructions there is a good possibility that the Allies won't know exacly what is going on, the problem with the U-boats was that with their type of operation they were often getting instructions from HQ, which gave away the plans to the Allies. I'm basing this on {1} the Allies were not able to pin down exactly what Japan was going to do on Dec 7, only a general idea that something was going on. {2} Even though the British warned the USN about operation "Drumbeat" in Jan 42, there was nothing that could really be done about it, too few ASW assets. In fact it took over 3 months to sink the first U-boat off of the US coast.

As for Japan, I imagine that they would have "tested the waters", by sending a few small freighters around the Aussie coast in the summer of '41, to see how vigilant the RAN was. If it seems that there are too many patrol craft, then insertation by sub would be the option used. In any event, the Japanese were good at living off the land, a few dozen guys could create havoc confusion all over the place, and of course no evacuation is needed, as they would fight to the last man.

5 If the Elite Commandos had come say from Japan it would be possible. But I am going to say these German Elite Troops have come straight from a European Theatre of War and hence the above problems would surface
.

Your scenerio speaks well of German Elite Troops but leaves out to many other scenerios without consideration of
1 British and Commonwealth Military and Covert Operations discovering the German Plan
2 Transport and Logistics over 12,000 miles
3 Down Playing Allied Responses whilst your Elite German Troops are enroute
4 And the size of this supposive force you wish to employ. With the above problems of Transportation and logistic.
5 And of course another problem would be refuelling the Submaries enroute and all these vessels enroute to Australia. Can't use either the Suez or Panama Canals as they are both controlled by the Allies. So the Submarirines Refuelling vessels or ships have to pass the areas of Sth Africa and South America and again hopefuly no detection would occur or disasters enroute by natural events like bad weather storms or other hazardous conditions to shipping let alone during war time conditions to deal with

Very good points. I would think that the key here for Germany is that with advance notice they can achieve much more, and could have the supply subs in place on the US atlantic coast to keep the operation going

 

[Soren]

Emac44,

Most of your questions have already been answered but I'll go into detail here;

First of all it wouldn't be a problem reaching the US or let alone Australia undiscovered by U-boat, the Germans continued to run undiscovered all over the Atlantic throughout the war, often right outside the US coast. The only time the Uboats were really risking getting caught were when attacking convoys or running on the surface. Furthermore the German naval code was anything but broken in 1942, new wheels continuously being added to the enigma machine.

Also many of the operations carried out by the Abwehr were so secret that even Hitler didn't know about them. Hitler would often order similar missions carried out, but the details he was always left without. The planning of the operation was kept entirely within the Abwehr. So the details of an operation like the one suggested by Freebird would've been kept completely within closed doors.

As for Allied covert infiltrations, well I am completely unaware of the Abwehr ever being infiltrated throughout the war, according to my sources it never happened, no attempts of ever trying such even being mentioned at all. On the other hand the Abwehr were responsible for many of the captures of Allied OSS personnel.

So infiltrating the Abwehr was pretty much impossible, and didn't happen. Thus the operation wasn't going to be blown before launching.

Infact similarly secretive operations as the one suggested were carried out by the Germans in WW2, and this was just like suggested in Freebird's scenario accomplished with transport by Uboat:

uboat.net - U-boat Operations - German saboteur landings in June 1942
uboat.net - U-boat Operations

Heck even in late 1944 (Nov), with the German naval code long broken did the Abwehr manage to secretly land two agents in the states:

uboat.net - U-boat Operations - German agents land in Nov 1944

So the operation is very much possible.

Moving on..

As for how many U-boats would be needed, well one or two at most. Emptying the rear torpedo room in a Type IXC and you've got enough room for nearly all the equipment needed, while the light equipment can easily be stashed away all over the boat. The rubber boats could be packed away in the top cargo hold originally intended for additional torpedoes.

 

[Aussie1001]

.
Do you have any idea of the Australian terrain
it is not like europe where everyone sits on top of one another, we are talking about a country who's second largest state (Queensland) is large enough to fit 13 UK's in. Most of this country is wasteland, towns being Very far and few between, say an average of about 1000 km between each major town, how without transport to you plan to achieve these distances ? how do you get more supplies ?
How do you hide this amout of equipment from the RAAF who would come looking as soon as it bacame clear this was going on, remember Aboriginals live out there, Your German elite don't stand a hope in hell against people who have been living there for the past 50 000 years, soon enough word would get to someone who could do something about this.

 

[Soren]

Have you at all been reading the posts in this thread Aussie1001 ??

Why the heck would the Germans want to land their team 1,000 km away from the nearest town ?? What kind of logic is that ?

Like I said the landing would occur approx. 10 km away from the nearest big city.

And as for the RAAF, they aint gonna find a thing as the Commando's will be either disguised or hiding. Or do you imagine them walking out in the open with weapons and in full uniform ??

Furthermore the transport needed would be commandeered, (Have you at all been listening ??!) on the night of the attack, providing a quick getaway after the attack.

For the rest of the details read the posts in this thread.


Oh and for your first question; Yes I do, I have family over there.

 

[Freebird]

Another interesting possibility, if Germany Italy had time to plan before the Japanese attack, imagine if the U-boats had transported a few of the Italian frogmen to Norfolk Navy base for a surprise attack on the morning of "Pearl"? I think there were 3 aircraft carriers there at the time.

Is their any reason to believe that the peacetime US Navy base would be even half as vigilant as the British in Alexandria? {didn't stop the Italians from holing 2 BB's anyways...}