Would WWII Australian public opinion be affected by a Japanese commando attack?

[Soren]

It seems Emac still isn't finished with his false accusations..

I'd definitely like to know when I have ever insulted the country Australia, the country in which I myself have family???

Emac also seems unable to understand that there's a BIG difference between catching agents and actually infiltrating an agency! So I will repeat: NONE of Emac's links mention the Abwehr ever being infiltrated!

That the British caught Abwehr agents means nothing cause the Abwehr knew about it, likewise it meant nothing that the Abwehr captured allot of Allied agents.

If what Emac claims was true then the Abwehr quite simply wouldn't have been able to pull off so many successful covert operations right up till late 1944.

And regarding Canaris, why on earth would he try to comprimise an operation which was nothing more than an harrassment intelligence operation. Why would Canaris want 75 of his own men to die without achieving a single goal ??

One can definitely rest assured that Canaris wouldn't slip any information to the Allies about any such operation, and he never did.

 

[Glider]

Soren
Have you read the paper that I posted?

It makes it clear that nearly all (it actually says all) the German agents that were landed in the UK were either killed, or turned into allied agents in the sense that they became part of the deception process. The fact that the Germans believed what they said and acted on the information fed to them by these turned agents, means that they were not aware that they had been captured.

That plus the fact that they monitored the German codes and were able to lead the German security forces into false trails and wasted effort would mean that German security missions into the UK were useless.

It is of course true that Germany were effective in capturing Allied Agents but they were not able to control allied operations in a manner that was even close to the control that the Allies had over German operations.

I should add that I also do not believe that Canaris would put his men at risk. He may well play political games within Germany and risk them that way, but that is very different from betraying your country directly to an enemy.

 

[Emac44]

Regarding the debate as to the Abwher being infiltrated or not by the Allied intelligence services I have found the following quote which will be of interest.

In addition to Ultra and the contentions between the Abwehr and SD, MI-6 (British security service, also known as the Secret Intelligence Service, responsible for collecting foreign intelligence) had penetrated the Abwehr before the war. MI-6 had an agent who worked in the Abwehr intelligence school located in Hamburg.70 As a result, the British were able to identify many of the early German agents before they even left
16 SECOND WORLD WAR DECEPTION
German soil. The Abwehr never recovered from these early set backs
and the conflict with the SD. Thus, the German intelli gence
community was susceptible to Allied
There are also some interesting observations on page 14 of the paper and I suggest that the whole document is of interest.

The link to the paper is as follows:-
http://www.maxwell.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/wright/wf05.pdf

Thank you Glider for your most interesting comments. And I did read the link you posted. So the British Intelligence inserted a agent into Abwehr Intelligence School in Hamburg. Who identified all Abwehr agents into Britian. And these same 120 agents were turned by British Intelligence as double agents. Who fed Abwehr misleading information during the course of the WAR. What was it you was saying ABWEHR was never penetrated or inflitrated by the Allies. That Abwehr had never been deceived by Allied Intelligence. And that information Abwehr received wasn't passed onto the German Government and Military. So much for that debate.

Soren you have complained I called you a NAZI. Not once but several times you made this accusation of me. You insulted my country in making a claim regarding Australian Military as Supermen and That I had recorded as such. You also claimed that I had said Australians were a people of Super Beings. Just precisely tell me when I made that remark. You even believed that Aussie1001 called you a racists when you dismissed the Aborigines in this thread as per Discussion. Which I found not only insulting to me but my Country as I have never made that or any such claims . And it matters very little to me if you have got family living in Australia. You have called other users on this forum LIARS. Very opening statment on Weaponolgy thread you have called 2 forum users LIARS. You have virtually called me one as well.

And now with Glider posting his information. Abwehr was very much penetrated infiltrated deceived and manipulated by the Allied Intelligence Service. And now finally it has been proved that Abwehr made mistakes Abwehr wasn't manned by Supermen.

And as for Caneris. He was hanged for TREASON by the Government of Germany. Caneris had been active in opposing Hitler's Regime. You may justify Caneris not betraying Abwehr Operatives per say on occassions he was responsible for. But Remember Hitler and his Regime with the Assasination Attempt by Caneris and others on Hitler was seen as Treason and as such Caneris was judged in betraying Germany. Even though you may disagree with the verdict. This verdict was delivered by the People's Court and Caneris was found Guilty. Caneris with other conspirators had conspired to pass on information to the Allies. After Hitler was removed that Caneris and his Cabal would negioate terms with the Allies. According to the German Government at the time this is an act of TREASON and as such Betrays Germany to her enemies. In this case the Allies.

What you are looking at is if Caneris would not betray Abwehr. I am looking beyond Abwehr and viewing it as the German Government did in 1944 with Caneris's Treason. Caneris also opposed sending Abwehr agents into Russian POW Camps. Operation Commisar. This too would been seen as Treasonable activity by the Government of Germany and as aiding the Allied War Effort. And Soren these activities by Caneris have to be taken into account whether you agree to them or not. But you are seeing it was Abwehr Brandenberg Caneris were seperate identities operating without knolwedge of either the Allies or even their counter parts in Germany itself. Namely Gestapo and the SS or SD. As Glider's post has proved Abwehr failed in opposition to the Allies and had been infiltrated and penetrated. Caneris BETRAYED GERMANY in this Case Hitler and his Regime.

Now with the turning of Abwehr Agents in Britian. MI5 and MI6 having knowledge of Abwehr Codes (as in Gliders Posting and his link)
The possibility of any planning as your scenerio dictates would be discovered by the British Intelligence according the Historical Data supplied by Glider in his link. As the data provides that Abwehr Codes and Transmissions were indeed being read by the Allies as early as 1941 and continued through out the war. Your scenerio Soren takes place in early 1942. Training would have to occur even with Brandenberg Troops. There is a British Mole in Abwehr as well in Hamburg according to Gliders Link again and this is factual. Which now means further your scenerio has severe security risks of being discovered
1 By MI6 Mole in Hamburg. Transmitting information to British Inteligence. Or
2 British Intelligence have already cracked Abwehr Codes and are reading Transcripts and Messages from Abwehr as from 1940 to 1941

And this is all factual Soren. And except for a few stuff ups royaly by British Intelligence. They have more than been a match for Abwehr as far as the Intelligence and Counter Intelligence warfare is concerned during WW2 between Abwehr and Allied Intelligence Services.

NOW AGAIN SOREN CAN YOU ACTUALLY POINT OUT ON THIS ENTIRE THREAD I CALLED YOU A NAZI. CAN YOU POINT OUT THAT I ACTUALLY CLAIMED AUSTRALIANS WERE SUPER BEINGS MEN OR OTHERWISE. AND NOW SOREN CAN YOU NOW SEE THE PROBLEMS YOUR SCENERIO HAS FROM GO TO WHOA. YOU EVEN CLAIMED I PUT WORDS IN YOUR MOUTH. WHICH I DEFINITELY HAD NOT. AND NOW CAN YOU ADMIT THAT ABWHER AFTER READING THE THREAD BY GLIDER NOW CALLS INTO QUESTION HISTORICALLY ABWEHR'S CAPABILITIES

 

[Emac44]

And here is the mystery bit about Wilhelm Canaris himself. And looking through the internet on various web sites on Canaris you will find confusing data on him I would say books written about Canaris would be confusing as well. People's names keep cropping up like Dietrich BonHoeffer and Lutherian Minister Dr Hans Bermd Gisevius. Dr Hans Bermd Gisesvius is linked to Allen Dulles whilst Dulles was stationed in Bern Switzerland as an OSS Agent. You can seek this information yourself. I spent 3 hours sifting through the information.

 

[Emac44]

This site I found you may find interesting
Real History and the reward for traitors
Admiral Wilheim Canaris
And the other post supports the first one on Canaris

Admiral Wilhelm Canaris

From all the information I have accessed about Canaris Kolbe Osten Muller Gisevius and Bonhoffer Freebird. Plus with Allen Dulles and his papers dealing with his OSS posting to Bern in Switzedland and with MI5 and MI6 it is some what confusing to draw a complete and accurate picture what actually did happen with the Conspirators to Assasinate Hitler on 20th July 1944 and subsquent events that occured either years before and until February 1945 when Canaris and other conspirators were finally executed. Osten for example had since 1939 been involved with plots to kill Hitler. But Osten after 1942 was Canaris's Deputy in Abwehr and had according to various sources from 1942 to 1944 had contacts with the Allies and other groups opposed to the Hitler Regime in Germany. And it was Hans Bermd Gisevius who had contacted Allen Dulles in Switzerland. I had a look at the writings of Allen Dulles writen well after World War 2 when Dulles was chief of the CIA. I tried to also transfer the link to the web site of the Library of the CIA which is available on the internet but it would not download onto this site. What I will do is give the web address as follows www. cia . gov // library/ center - for - the- study - of - intelligence / csi- publications/ books- and - monographs / oss /art06 .htm. For some reason when I tried on various occassions to put in this link it wouldn't transfer across to the WW2 Warbirds site which was frustrating as it had quiet an interest material on this period of time.

My best opinion of Canaris and his fellow Conspirators and according to the information supplied was Canaris indeed betrayed Hitler Regime all during WW2 and previous to September of 1939. He had to retain his cover as chief of Abwehr all through his period of office from 1935 to 1944 as necassary for his own survival and that of his fellow Conspirators as if the Regime had found out what Canaris and his fellow Conspirators had in mind would have been an instant death sentance. And in doing so this is where it gets confusing. The information has Canaris working as usual for Abwehr appearing to support the Regime in name only but using Abwehr to bring down the Regime. 95% of Abwehr Agents were loyal to Hitler according to some of the sources I have looked at but it was only 5% of Abwehr who were in the inner circle of Canaris's contacts he could actually trust and were implicated in the plots to assasinate Hitler.

But what is really strange is that some of the information on Canaris comes from the Jewish Library from World War 2 and Canaris is looked upon as a Rightgeous Gentile as Canaris managed to save 7 Jews from execution by the Gestapo. Canaris had gone to Himmler complaining of the Gestapo arresting 7 Abwehr Agents. These Agents were the 7 Jews already arrested. Canaris managed to have these Jews released. Took them to Abwehr had them taught basic Codes and got them out of Germany. This alone would have got him executed in Germany. Another incident involved French Officers in Tunsia captured who the Gestapo wanted to execute. Again Canaris intervened. Another incident involved Canaris approaching a US Consular Official in Turkey during the War 1943 and wishing to pass on information. This was turned down by Roosevelt himself. But from what i can glean about Canaris is that he was very much a complicated individual. But at the time I believe he had to be as his very life and those around him in his cabal's life depended on it. So it isn't as Black and White as it seems Freebird

 

[Glider]

I am not wanting to reopen this thread but I bought a book in a second hand book shop last week on the German Intelligence Services.
The book is called Hitlers Spies by David Kahn. ISBN 0 340 17553 2
It a big beast of 670 pages and well researched (there are 60 pages just quoting the sources). As you may have guessed it covers Hitlers Spies but also goes into considerable detail on Army, Navy, Airforce and Economic intelligence. Covering tactics, methods, what worked and what didn't, with examples of operations.
If you have an interest in this area its a book I would recommend.

 

[Freebird]

And here is the mystery bit about Wilhelm Canaris himself. And looking through the internet on various web sites on Canaris you will find confusing data on him I would say books written about Canaris would be confusing as well. People's names keep cropping up like Dietrich BonHoeffer and Lutherian Minister Dr Hans Bermd Gisevius. Dr Hans Bermd Gisesvius is linked to Allen Dulles whilst Dulles was stationed in Bern Switzerland as an OSS Agent. You can seek this information yourself. I spent 3 hours sifting through the information.

Canaris was certainly a strange charachter in the drama, it's hard to try to understand exactly his motives, what he was trying to do

I am not wanting to reopen this thread but I bought a book in a second hand book shop last week on the German Intelligence Services.
The book is called Hitlers Spies by David Kahn. ISBN 0 340 17553 2
It a big beast of 670 pages and well researched (there are 60 pages just quoting the sources). As you may have guessed it covers Hitlers Spies but also goes into considerable detail on Army, Navy, Airforce and Economic intelligence. Covering tactics, methods, what worked and what didn't, with examples of operations.
If you have an interest in this area its a book I would recommend.

Glider, it would be interesting to hear your opinion of the book after reading it.

 

[parsifal]

Rather than dealing in this hypothetical, has any thought been given to the actual performance of the desert commandos. Historically, the British (mostly New Zealand), the Italians and the germans all raised formations for deep penetrations behind enemy lines. Without a doubt, by far the most successful were the British/New Zealand efforts, who are credited with many success stories in the three years of their existence. They were known as the Long Range Desert Groups (LRDGs) and just as an example managed to destroy well over 500 axis aircraft in the desert, and captured the impportant garrison town of Kufra, in the far south of Libya (with some help from about 500 French colonial troops). The capture of this city was pivotal in the capture of Italian East Africa, because the Italians could no longer ship aircraft spares or other emergency supplies to their colony. Without these spares (and mail), the italian Air Force in that region (who had achieved local air superiority for a while in that little known theatre, was rapidly grounded, whilst the lack of mail caused a noticeable frop in Morale in the Italian troops fighting in Eritrea.

The British LRDGs developed techniques that were highly successful, and definately not emulated by any of the rival axis formations. Modifications were carried out on the vehicles to make them capable of traversing the huge sandunes south of the coastal plain. Local knowledge, was essential, and provided by the leaders of the groups ( who pre-war had undertaken a number of explorations of the Libyan desert, and knew the lie of the land quite well) , which enable the general topography and existence of desert tracks to be known. As the exploits of the LRDG expanded , so too did their knowledge of the Libyan desert. This emphasis on local knowledge was something badly overlooked by the Germans, whilst the italains had some knowledge of their own territory, they lacked much information on the Egyptian desert. I cannot stress strongly enough that survival in the desert is dependant upon local knowledge more than anything. You need to know the lie of the land, and the effects of local conditions. And they do vary, alot,, from area to area.

Whilst the Allied LRDG formations achieved outsdtanding succeses in the desert, the axis efforts were never anywhere near as successful, I dont see how it can be claimed the Germans in Australia would be any more successful than the German LRDGs in Libya, in fact they would probably be a lot less successful

 

[Freebird]

Whilst the Allied LRDG formations achieved outsdtanding succeses in the desert, the axis efforts were never anywhere near as successful, I dont see how it can be claimed the Germans in Australia would be any more successful than the German LRDGs in Libya, in fact they would probably be a lot less successful

You are correct that the Commonwealth seems to have had the best success, {although the Italian frogmen deserve mention for outstanding effort} and I put forward that this is because the UK Allies were in an inferior position for several years, and saw covert/commando operations as the best way to mislead the Axis. I am thinking of the operations against Norway, which prompted Hitler to keep a huge garrison there, tying up troops that were badly needed elsewhere, and also of the deception plans for the invasions of Normandy Sicily.

OK, Parsifal we got off track on this thread, I postulated that commando attacks by only the Japanese would be made against Austalia, and the German commandos would target the USA Atlantic/Gulf coasts. I agree with Glider Emac that a German operation "down under" does not make practical or military sense.

I think Glider had the right idea here.

You need something more to be effective, continual small strikes that can cause significant damage, that happen again and again, spread uncertainty.
Targets should be infrastructure based, water pumping stations, power lines, fuel pipelines, bridges, almost anything that impacts the civilian population. Anything that makes them question their goverment and what they are being told.

Attacks would be best spread over the coast forcing the defenders to spread their resources and reducing the risk to the attackers

The idea would be to cause panic among the general population, which would make the government devote considerable resources to coastal/home defence, robbing the very vital urgent requirements of the overseas missions. I know from my own Grandparents that there was a certain amount of panic and some exodus from the Canadian Pacific coast after a lone Japanese sub shot up a lighthouse on Vancouver Island.

A similar result in Australia after the Darwin raid:

As Wildcat pointed out the Darwin raid led to a panic flight of military personnel and civilians into the interior. A number of books have been published on the subject and conclude that it wasn't one of Australia's better moments in the war.