Would WWII Australian public opinion be affected by a Japanese commando attack?

[Freebird]

Hey don't blame me Freebird, it wasn't me who brought up the weaponology thread, and I didn't start throwing the mud either.

No problem. It really amazes me that the most contentious and disagreeable comments come on threads that are highly technical, I would have thought that engineers would be the most cool level headed?

And Freebird once again I apologise for bringing this Thread to disagreement again. I suggest you have one of the Moderators close this thread.

Hopefully it will settle down a bit and that won't be needed.

I think you have both made some good points, and it has been a rather interesting discussion.

Soren while I agree with you that it would be possible for the German commando's to make it to Australia, I don't think the "payoff" would come anywhere near the cost involved. Also Emac the others have made some valid points about the distance involved, it makes it very difficult to account for any problems encountered so far away.

Also, you may be right about the later type IX's having the range to get there in 1942, however I was postulating a "combined Axis plan" in which it would be critical for
(1.) all commando operations to be set up in the fall of '41, so that the teams can go from Pearl +1.
(2.) Germany would need to deploy all type IX's (and many type VII's) on the US east coast to be ready to attack right after Pearl.

I a {hypothetical} German Japanese war conference in the summer of 1941 would give the Japanese the responsibility of commando attacks against Australia, as it was in their sphere of influence, and they already had some intelligence agents operating in many areas of the S. Pacific. There commando attacks would probably be more basic in nature, however the Japanese have the advantage that their soldiers can travel very light, and are all "suicide troops", so will fight to the death instead of surrender.

Perhaps the best tactic for the Japanese to use would be to launch a few 6 carrier attacks against Sydney or Brisbane etc, in concert with the commando attacks. The point would be to force Australia (and the US) to devote several {or many} fighter squadons to defend Australian cities. {instead of defending against Japanese expansion in N. Guinea, Malaysia, Coral sea etc}

Once Germany has decided to throw in together with the Japanese, it would be most profitable for Germany to make commando attacks against the USA, as in peacetime mode it would be almost unprepared for this.

We tend to forget that at this point the US was desperatly short of everything {except bravado }, they didn't have enough troops, planes, ships, guns, vehicles, everything. So that a few small but effective attacks will cause the US to waste badly needed resources guarding potential targets.

You need something more to be effective, continual small strikes that can cause significant damage, that happen again and again, spread uncertainty.
Targets should be infrastructure based, water pumping stations, power lines, fuel pipelines, bridges, almost anything that impacts the civilian population. Anything that makes them question their goverment and what they are being told.

Glider is exactly right, these kind of "infrastructure" attacks could be very effective. Imagine if the US army had to post a company or platoon to guard every, dam, power station, railway bridge, refinery, airfield, etc

Emac's links only mention the capture of German agents, nothing about any infiltrations of the Abwehr.

Ok I think you are almost debating different things. I don't think Emac was saying that they "infiltrated" Abwehr HQ, but the capture of agents and especially the info passed by Canaris could be a major problem.

Soren have you read much about Canaris? I know he tried to undermine the Nazi's, but I wonder how much direct knowlege he would have of commando missions, and whether he would expose his own "special ops" teams to capture death?

For example, if it was leaked to the Allies that Germany might be planning sabotage missions in the US in the event of war, this might not be a major problem, as the US was unwilling to believe that they were vulnerable to attack, and the info might not be believed anyways as a possible plant of a "red herring" {there were alot of rumours floating around in the spring/summer of '41, the US was worried about German schemes in Mexico, S. America etc}

However if Canaris was to leak specific information about where the teams would land on the Atlantic coast, or what specific targets they were planning to attack then this could be a major problem.

Questions for Soren { Emac}

Would Canaris have detailed information like that?
What was his status in the summer of 1941? I think that they already suspected his loyatly, is it possible that they would keep him "out of the loop"?
Do you think that Canaris would perhaps only leak general warnings but not betray his own Abwehr special agents?

Soren I don't think that you can dismiss Emac's points about intelligence leaks, the leakage of detailed information could be very damaging to this type of operation.

However on the other hand, I also do recall that the British gave the USA advance warning about "Drumbeat", but it made little difference as the US was unwilling or unable to make any defensive preparations.

 

[Freebird]

And every single Abwehr agent caught and captured except 1 who commited suicide turned against Abwehr in Britian and there was well over 100 agents of Abwehr operating in Britian from 1938 to 1941. Abwehr Head Quatars in Paris was Penetrated by the French Resistence. Abwehr Code Books were stolen by the British Abwehr communications were comprimised. And still after all those website I put on the thread including from MI5 and BBC you chose to ignore. Making out that justifies you calling me a LIAR. Capturing of those Abwehr Agents and the information the British gained from those agents and turning those agents means Abwehr was certainly penetrated and Infiltrated by the Allies in World War 2.

Emac the Abwehr certainly had problems, its hard to imagine how they functioned at all with the guy at the top sabotaging {Canaris}

The thing I was wondering is with all the info available to the British, how did the German commando's pull off such an effective attack against Norway?

I would think that the Norway operations would provide a good example of the effectivness of "commando attacks"?

 

[Glider]

I would suggest that the attack on Norway was a lot more than a commando attack, it was a full invasion.

 

[Emac44]

I would suggest that the attack on Norway was a lot more than a commando attack, it was a full invasion.

As was the original attack on Poland in 1939. As was a full attack on Norway and Greece and in part Crete later. But Caneris was the leak point and always had been. And if the Allies knew of Caneris being a leak in the Abwehr Operations and also German Military Secret Information. It is a very good chance that the Gestapo and SS Intelligence knew this as well or suspected as such. It is highly likely the Gestapo had their own information sources in Abwehr. If Caneris had plans as early as 1942 to assasinate Hitler and we do know of such groups in Germany along with Caneris and including High Ranking Officers of the German Military were unsatisfied with Hitler and his regime. Even after the attempted assasination on Hitler in 1944. Rounding up of conspirators of the assasination plot by the Gestapo and other Military Groups loyal to the Hitler Regime took very little time to accomplish and Caneris was one of the first arrested. We know that the Gestapo had suspected German Citizens and Military years previous to the Wolf Lair Assasination Plot already being placed under scrutiny by the Gestapo. And this alone in itself comprimises Abwehr Security in itself as Caneris had been suspected by the Gestapo and German NAZI Government of being disloyal to the Regime. One of the greatest disasters for the German NAZI Government was the play games of seeking approval by Hitler by senior members of the NAZI Party and Government. The risk of one of these Government Officials finding out about such a plan as Soren has detailed by Abwehr not sanctioned by the NAZI Government Military or High Ranking Party Members of the NAZI Party would be too much to resist. And that would also keep Caneris out of the loop in my opinion Freebird. Caneris by all means was a resourceful man but he was also Anti Nazi. And as such being kept out of the loop of such a plan as he would envisage as Soren had detailed would be too much for him and I believe Caneris would betray this to the Allies. This of course is speculation and also relies on whether the Allies would also buy this betrayal by Caneris as being factual. But going by his past record the Allied Intelligence Services would keep a wary watchful eye on things as it developed

A plan as extravagant as Soren's stretching over 15,000 Sea Miles to an area of the world which is doubtful that German Intelligence knew much about in the 1940s. Nor the enviroment as already discussed. I believe Soren thinks the Western Australian Desert and Coastline is similar to what is found in North Africa. It simpley isn't nor is the temperature or lack of water and supplies would hinder greatly such an attack or make it near impossible to launch from such a distance effectively. One of the greater barriers being such islands you find of the Coral Coast of Queensland. Such islands do not exsist on the West Coast of Australia. There are a few Rocky Barren outcrops with no fresh water or cover to speak of.

Some one mentioned the Aboriginals themselves being part of this equation. Which was dismissed by Soren. These Aborigines who live in this enviroment even though not of any Military Significance to Soren would play a siginficant role in discovering the where abouts of any one not native to this area. One of the Aborigines greatest feats in his own enviroment is to not be seen. They are truely masters of their own enviroment and it is again highly doubtful that even Brandenberg Troops would know if their pressences and where abouts would not have been discovered, within a very short time by Aborigines and information passed onto White Authorities. I know Brandenberg Troops spoke several different European Languages but it is to much to even contemplate that Brandenberg Elite Troops knew any of the 200 Aboriginal Dialects still concurrent in Australia in 1942

The Japanese on the other hand could have launched an attack on the Far North or Eastern Coast of Australia and had greater successes. But the German Military launching an attack over such great distances is near impossible. And it matters little if Brandenberg Elite Commandos were to be used as it would be near suicidal to even comtemplate having such troops with Western minded emphasis going on a suicide mission with no ultimate pay off at the end. And again I can't emphasis enough the vast expanses of the Western Australian Coastline being so isolated with communities many hundreds of Kilometres seperating each community along this Coastline. This being and is the case defeats the purpose of Soren's mission to spread panic. Its a bit hard to spread panic by attacking one community 300 miles away and other communities don't know of it due to distances involved. And if this attack was to concern itself on attacks not on just Communities and Civilians but also Infrastructure for example Electricity Dams Telephone Water Supplies and Concentrated Infrastructure like Road and Rail Transportation etc. These simpley didn't exsist in Western Australia in 1942 not to the great extend that Soren imagines. This is Western Australia in 1942 with small populations lack of infrastructure communities seperated by hundreds of miles in isolation stretched over a coastline some 1,500 miles. Now you explain to me who would attack such a target without some type of pay off at the end. It would be a total waste of time man power and effort. And it would cost the lives of Elite Troops best used elsewhere for a greater gain then what as Soren envisages.

 

[Emac44]

And here I have had to use Google Earth Maps to show in context the Western Australian Coastline of 2008. In 1942 the Coastline of course would not have changed significantly but the population and infrastructure would have in comparison from 1942 to 2008. The Major population Centre in Western Australia is around the Southern Region around Perth in map 3 etc. The 2nd map shows around Shark's Bay Central Coast line and above. Map 1 shows the Northern Region of Western Australia up as far as the Northern Territory Border. These areas especially map 1 and 2 were isolated areas in 1942 with townships and infrastructure lacking greatly. Maybe this may explain to Soren and give him a visual imagery to understand why his scenerio would fail. When Australians say to him this area is isolated we mean its ISOLATED. For all the purposes in Soren's Scenerio. The greater Scenerio would be attacking the EAST COAST OF THE USA in 1942 then to comtemplate attacking a Coast Line in Australia so deverse and lacking in population centres and infrastructure

 

[Emac44]

And here is an Google Earth Map of East Coast USA 2008 comparatively changed since 1942 of course. But in comparison to the Western Australian Coast would be a highly sought after target to conduct a Commando Raid upon where High Population Cities and Infrastructure Targets would be a higher value and clustered closer together. If I was to plan a Commando Raid and had the choice of which targets to strike I would choose the area I knew would cause more damage to the enemy on all areas. I certainly wouldn't choose an area as isolated as Western Australia and have scant or little return Militarily

 

[Freebird]

I would suggest that the attack on Norway was a lot more than a commando attack, it was a full invasion.

What I meant Glider was that the "conventional" amphib operations in Norway were at the start a big defeat, {the Norway shore batteries sunk a German heavy cruiser}, while the "commando" style operations were a stunning success. The small scale para landings, the "trojan horse" operations on Bergen Trondheim {IIRC} where German troops hidden in cargo ships landed unopposed to capture the ports.

I wondered if the British had warning of the covert troop landing plan, why couldn't they do more to intercept them before they landed?

 

[Soren]

Freebird,

Sorry for the late reply, and it'll be short cause I have to get back to work soon, again sorry, but I'll be back.

To answer one of your questions though;

Canaris NEVER handed over any information on any operation carried out by the Abwehr and esp. the Brandenburg regiment to the Allies. It is really important to get it clear that Canaris didn't ever want to betray and endanger his men, all he wanted was Hitler off the "throne" so to speak, and therefore supplied the Allies with information of his where'abouts.

To make it even more clear Canaris like every other German wanted to win the war, or atleast not loose it, and thus he never once thought of betraying his country men and putting them in mortal danger.

Thus in your hypothetical scenario there need be no worries about Canaris slipping a tongue about anything, cause he like every other German would've wanted it to succeed.

 

[Soren]

Hopefully it will settle down a bit and that won't be needed.

With Emac's continious illusions of me being a Nazi I really doubt that Freebird.

Anyway all I can do is laugh at his ridiculous rants. Also to no surprise Emac still hasn't provided anything to support his claim that the Abwehr was ever infiltrated, eventhough he claims his links are evidence, the problem however is that his links don't mention it at all.

And as for me being biased, well the funny thing is that it is usually very biased individuals who accuse others of being biased, and Emac has already once made it clear that he thinks Australian soldiers are supermen of their own, totally better than their British counterparts ofcourse. So who's biased here ?

 

[Freebird]

With Emac's continious illusions of me being a Nazi I really doubt that Freebird. And as for me being biased, well the funny thing is that it is usually very biased individuals who accuse others of being biased, and Emac has already once made it clear that he thinks Australian soldiers are supermen of their own, totally better than their British counterparts ofcourse. So who's biased here

I don't think he was calling you a Nazi Soren, and I don't think anyone should be slinging that accusation. We all have some "patriotic" fellings here, I would guess that your background is probably German. Emac is proud of his Australian heritage {and probably British too, as is mine} Nothing wrong with that. In any event, we are discussing hypotheticals here, and must base this on interpretation of facts as far as possible.

Emac still hasn't provided anything to support his claim that the Abwehr was ever infiltrated, eventhough he claims his links are evidence, the problem however is that his links don't mention it at all.

Well they do mention the infiltration of the Abwehr's British operation, but the double agents wouldn't have information about upcoming German operations of course.

Did the US have the same kind of success catching agents as the British? Or any success?

Soren I think to be honest that Emac Glider have both brought up good points,

A plan as extravagant as Soren's stretching over 15,000 Sea Miles the Western Australian Desert.
I know Brandenberg Troops spoke several different European Languages but it is to much to even contemplate that Brandenberg Elite Troops knew any of the 200 Aboriginal Dialects still concurrent in Australia in 1942

I am in agreement with you Emac, the German landing in the desert {or anywhere in OZ} does not make much sense from a practical point, or in regard to benefits gained

The Japanese on the other hand could have launched an attack on the Far North or Eastern Coast of Australia and had greater successes. But the German Military launching an attack over such great distances is near impossible.

Agreed, I think it would make the most sense to consider the possible attacks that the Japanese might contemplate against Australia, and that Germany might plan against the USA.

{so lets leave the aborigines their boomerangs in peace }

And here is an Google Earth Map of East Coast USA 2008 comparatively changed since 1942 of course. But in comparison to the Western Australian Coast would be a highly sought after target to conduct a Commando Raid upon where High Population Cities and Infrastructure Targets would be a higher value and clustered closer together. If I was to plan a Commando Raid and had the choice of which targets to strike I would choose the area I knew would cause more damage to the enemy on all areas.

Again I agree Emac, it makes the most sense.

The question is whether to land a sizeable force {50-75 men} in one place, or as Glider suggested, many smaller 4 - 8 man teams would be harder to track catch.

Would it be better to use the available 5th column "Bund" supporters?
These pro-fascists could provide very valuable logistical support {cars, safe houses, supplies etc} but then there would be a higher risk of someone betraying the operation.

 

[Emac44]

And still you haven't addressed the issues. And still you are German Biased. If you claim I called you a NAZI then that is of your own imagination over reacting. And Yes Soren each and every WEBSITE I PROVIDED MENTIONED ABWEHR. Now who is it who is in denial. Denial that your scenerio has been proved lacking and faulty AND DENIAL THAT ABWEHR ****** UP ON MORE THEN ONE OCCASSION . As for Caneris Betraying HITLER to the ALLIES MEANT CANERIS WOULD BETRAY GERMANY AS HITLER WAS THE HEAD OF THE GERMAN GOVERNMENT AT THE TIME. CANERIS OR BRANDENBERGERS WERE NOT THE GERMAN GOVERNMENT. YES THEY BOTH SERVED GERMANY BUT THIS ALSO MEANS THEY SERVED THE THEN GERMAN GOVERNMENT. BUT CANERIS IN HIS ATTEMPTS AND BEING INVOLVED WITH THE PLOT TO ASSASINATE HITLER MEANS HE COMMITTED TREASON ACCORDING TO THE THEN GERMAN GOVERNMENT. WHAT PART OF THIS DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND. AND CANERIS IN HIS ATTEMPTS TO ASSASINATE HITLER WAS WILLING LIKE ALL OF THE CONSPIRATORS TO NEGIOATE PEACEFUL TERMS AND CONDITIONS WITH THE ALLIES ONCE HITLER WAS REMOVED FROM POWER. IN OTHER WORDS ONCE HITLER WAS REMOVED THE CONSPIRATORS ON GAINING POWER WANTED AN ARMISTICES WITH THE ALLIES AS SIMILAR TO THE ARMISTICE OF 1918

 

[Emac44]

And again I never claimed Soren was a NAZI. I said Soren was biased against Allied War Effort but always highlighted favourabley German Abwehr successes or German Military successes never the failures of either. I call into question Soren's Scenerio. Some how Soren has concluded that this means I have called him a NAZI

 

[Emac44]

I don't think he was calling you a Nazi Soren, and I don't think anyone should be slinging that accusation. We all have some "patriotic" fellings here, I would guess that your background is probably German. Emac is proud of his Australian heritage {and probably British too, as is mine} Nothing wrong with that. In any event, we are discussing hypotheticals here, and must base this on interpretation of facts as far as possible.



Well they do mention the infiltration of the Abwehr's British operation, but the double agents wouldn't have information about upcoming German operations of course.

Did the US have the same kind of success catching agents as the British? Or any success?

Soren I think to be honest that Emac Glider have both brought up good points,




I am in agreement with you Emac, the German landing in the desert {or anywhere in OZ} does not make much sense from a practical point, or in regard to benefits gained



Agreed, I think it would make the most sense to consider the possible attacks that the Japanese might contemplate against Australia, and that Germany might plan against the USA.

{so lets leave the aborigines their boomerangs in peace }



Again I agree Emac, it makes the most sense.

The question is whether to land a sizeable force {50-75 men} in one place, or as Glider suggested, many smaller 4 - 8 man teams would be harder to track catch.

Would it be better to use the available 5th column "Bund" supporters?
These pro-fascists could provide very valuable logistical support {cars, safe houses, supplies etc} but then there would be a higher risk of someone betraying the operation.

Well it would make more sense to send 4 to 5 man team with 5th Element Group assisting in your scenerio in the US Freebrid. As 4 to 5 man team is easier to hide then 50 to 75 men. And given the right circumstances a small group can cause as much damage to infrastructure then 50 to 75 men in comparison. Once Again unless you are planning a large scale commando attack. A smaller group would be abled to attack and evade better. Similar operations by the British worked extremely well in Occupied Europe though to be fair there were also some massive stuff ups and failures. But this is to be expected on such a raid. And as you have said Freebird its not always possible to have 100% security to make the operation successful, through the entire length of the operation. A myrid of things could go wrong even before launching the operation. From Departure to Arrival and Return

 

[Soren]

And you Emac44, fail to realize that the Abwehr was NEVER infiltrated and that NONE of your links says otherwise!


Freebird,

I'm still not from Germany, or Austria or Switzerland...

 

[Freebird]

And again I never claimed Soren was a NAZI. I said Soren was biased against Allied War Effort but always highlighted favourabley German Abwehr successes or German Military successes never the failures of either. I call into question Soren's Scenerio. Some how Soren has concluded that this means I have called him a NAZIAnd still you haven't addressed the issues. And still you are German Biased.

Perhaps he does favor Germany Emac, nothing wrong with that. i notice that most of the posters that said "USA won the war" were American, which raised the ire of almost all of the commonwealth posters here! National pride is alive well. It's fine to herald the capabilities of one side or the other, as long as we remain realistic.

Soren each and every WEBSITE I PROVIDED MENTIONED ABWEHR. ABWEHR ****** UP ON MORE THEN ONE OCCASSION .

As for Caneris Betraying HITLER to the ALLIES MEANT CANERIS WOULD BETRAY GERMANY AS HITLER WAS THE HEAD OF THE GERMAN GOVERNMENT AT THE TIME. . BUT CANERIS IN HIS ATTEMPTS AND BEING INVOLVED WITH THE PLOT TO ASSASINATE HITLER MEANS HE COMMITTED TREASON ACCORDING TO THE THEN GERMAN GOVERNMENT.

. AND CANERIS IN HIS ATTEMPTS TO ASSASINATE HITLER WAS WILLING LIKE ALL OF THE CONSPIRATORS TO NEGIOATE PEACEFUL TERMS AND CONDITIONS WITH THE ALLIES ONCE HITLER WAS REMOVED FROM POWER. IN OTHER WORDS ONCE HITLER WAS REMOVED THE CONSPIRATORS ON GAINING POWER WANTED AN ARMISTICES WITH THE ALLIES AS SIMILAR TO THE ARMISTICE OF 1918

OK Emac, I can see both yours Sorens points of view.

Soren says that while Canaris wanted to get rid of Hitler, he wouldn't betray his own agents

Emac {if I read your point right} you think that Canaris would betray a plan to hit the USA because he would think attacking USA was suicide.

Emac you are correct that Abwehr ops in the UK were badly compromised a major failure.

Questions are: How did the British catch all of these agents in the UK? Were any betrayed by Canaris or were they detected by other means?

And are there any specific details about whether Canaris was still "In the loop" in the fall of '41? If he was suspected by the Gestapo at the time, and the German command planned top secret ops against USA it wouldn't be too smart to let him in on the details, does it?

Well it would make more sense to send 4 to 5 man teams. Similar operations by the British worked extremely well in Occupied Europe though to be fair there were also some massive stuff ups and failures. But this is to be expected on such a raid. And as you have said Freebird its not always possible to have 100% security to make the operation successful, through the entire length of the operation. A myrid of things could go wrong even before launching the operation. From Departure to Arrival and Return

Very true, Emac, although I have some doubts that info about a supposed commando attack would be acted upon, due to the huge volume of information intercept "chatter".

The USA was very concerned about possible German plans in Mexico or S. America, I really wonder if the US got info about a few possible commandos blowing up bridges or something would even be acted upon. Remembering of course that the commanders on the ground in Hawaii got fairly specific warnings the week befor Pearl that "something was up", yet through complacency failed to act on it.


Everyone on the thread, lets leave out the accusations of lying, or personal attacks!!

This is a hypothetical discussion, so we can post facts info relavant to the discussion, and then debate how this would apply to the hypothetical scenario.

Soren, I think Emac has raised a solid criticism of the idea, in that if Canaris thought it was a bad idea, he might leak it. The key point would be if he ever did betray German agents, if he was willing to sacrifice his own agents for what he thought was for the "Good of Germany"

 

[Freebird]

Freebird,

Sorry for the late reply, and it'll be short cause I have to get back to work soon, again sorry, but I'll be back.

To answer one of your questions though;

Canaris NEVER handed over any information on any operation carried out by the Abwehr and esp. the Brandenburg regiment to the Allies. It is really important to get it clear that Canaris didn't ever want to betray and endanger his men, all he wanted was Hitler off the "throne" so to speak, and therefore supplied the Allies with information of his where'abouts.

To make it even more clear Canaris like every other German wanted to win the war, or atleast not loose it, and thus he never once thought of betraying his country men and putting them in mortal danger.
.

So you think that even if he thought that planning attacks against USA was "suicide" he wouldn't betray his own men?

I think I can see the logic in this, he wanted Hitler out but wouldn't betray "his" men

Would he though perhaps leak general details of the plan to the Allies in an attempt to persuade the German high command to abandon it?

 

[Emac44]

So you think that even if he thought that planning attacks against USA was "suicide" he wouldn't betray his own men?

I think I can see the logic in this, he wanted Hitler out but wouldn't betray "his" men

Would he though perhaps leak general details of the plan to the Allies in an attempt to persuade the German high command to abandon it?

That is highly possible Freebird. Leaking information from Caneris to the Allies before the Operation was to take place and have operations scrubbed and cancelled before it took place, Due to Caneris being in conflict with German Politiccal or Military Commands oppsed to Caneris

 

[Emac44]

And you Emac44, fail to realize that the Abwehr was NEVER infiltrated and that NONE of your links says otherwise!


Freebird,

I'm still not from Germany, or Austria or Switzerland...

Are you having a language PROBLEM Soren. Abwehr whether in Occupied Europe or in Great Britian was penetrated. Abwehr's OPERATIONS in England was infiltrated by MI5 and MI6 and agents were captured in the UK. In Paris Abwehr's own head quartars was infiltrated and their communications from that HEAD QUARTARS were infiltrated by the French Resistance. Abwehr agents in Britian again were turned to be double agents. This again is another infiltration of ABWEHR SECURITY. ABWEHR was deluded by British Intelligence by use of GABO Operative feeding false information to Abwehr prior to the invasion of France June 1944. Operation Perwig used by MI5 MI6 and SOE fed false information to Abwehr of 5th Element Groups in Germany itself. In Yugoslavia British SOE and Partinsan Groups operating in Yugoslavia where operating against Abwehr and Gestapo in that country. With the exception of Holland Abwehr agents had been comprimised and caught identified and at times killed. How much more do you want Soren. Are you having problems realising that INFILTRATION and PENETRATING ABWEHR Security and Operations is the same. How many more times Soren are you going to sit there shaking your bloody head and begin to realize ABWEHR MADE MISTAKES DURING WORLD WAR 2. And its not me failing to realize what my links says Soren its your own stubborness in thinking Abwehr was manned by SUPERMEN. And all my links I gave Soren says that Abwehr was Penetrated and Infiltrated. I am tired of your denials on this Soren.

You have accused me of Calling you a NAZI. You have virtually called me a LIAR. You have insulted my country. When are you going to realize Soren your postings in denial about Abwehr is being seen as garbage. This is the same attitude you adopted with Glen and Kenny on your German Weaponology thread. Both of these users brought out brilliant counter points to your thread on German Weaponology but you behaved like as if they smeared the WHOLE GERMAN WAR EFFORT.

 

[Glider]

Regarding the debate as to the Abwher being infiltrated or not by the Allied intelligence services I have found the following quote which will be of interest.

In addition to Ultra and the contentions between the Abwehr and SD, MI-6 (British security service, also known as the Secret Intelligence Service, responsible for collecting foreign intelligence) had penetrated the Abwehr before the war. MI-6 had an agent who worked in the Abwehr intelligence school located in Hamburg.70 As a result, the British were able to identify many of the early German agents before they even left
16 SECOND WORLD WAR DECEPTION
German soil. The Abwehr never recovered from these early set backs
and the conflict with the SD. Thus, the German intelli gence
community was susceptible to Allied
There are also some interesting observations on page 14 of the paper and I suggest that the whole document is of interest.

The link to the paper is as follows:-
http://www.maxwell.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/wright/wf05.pdf

 

[Freebird]

Regarding the debate as to the Abwher being infiltrated or not by the Allied intelligence services I have found the following quote which will be of interest.

In addition to Ultra and the contentions between the Abwehr and SD, MI-6 (British security service, also known as the Secret Intelligence Service, responsible for collecting foreign intelligence) had penetrated the Abwehr before the war. MI-6 had an agent who worked in the Abwehr intelligence school located in Hamburg.70 As a result, the British were able to identify many of the early German agents before they even left
German soil.

That is highly possible Freebird. Leaking information from Caneris to the Allies before the Operation was to take place and have operations scrubbed and cancelled before it took place, Due to Caneris being in conflict with German Politiccal or Military Commands oppsed to Caneris

I think you have established that Abwehr was "compromised". {whether or not Soren agrees that is the same as "penetrated"}, although Gliders quote seems to show that as well. They did not seem to have a mole inside the planning operations side AFAIK.

However Emac, I don't think that the leak of general info would automatically result in the scrubbing of the operation. It's possible that Germany would not ebven know about the leak until they got to the US. If they sent out the commandos with general instructions only, {eg. list of targets} and left the commando leader in charge, it would work. If however they tried to micro-manage the operation from Berlin I think it would screw it up. {like the problems with the U-boats being located due to their communications}