Would WWII Australian public opinion be affected by a Japanese commando attack? (1 Viewer)

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Aboriginals and Torres Strait Islanders were used in WWII as a recon and surveilance force. They wouldn't have to engage the commandos, simply track them down and radio their position. I don't care how elite the Germans were, in the Australian bush they would easily be tracked down by the aborigines. I highly doubt anyone could successfully cover all their tracks, especially if they're hauling around heavy weapons or driving through the bush in trucks.

The heavy equipment wouldn't be hauled into the bush, it would either be dug down or hidden somewhere.

As for the Aboriginals tracking the Commandos down easily, that's hardly so. Like I said the commandos would be split up in small teams, some on foot others by car/truck.

Their camo uniforms might be great for Europe but would stand out like dog balls in the Australian bush.

You don't know allot of German uniforms do you ?

You don't seriously believe they would go to Australia with European style camo uniforms do you ? Did they do that in Africa ?

The German army had camo uniforms for every season at every inviroment on earth. Infact I'd imagine the uniform to be used in Australia would be the double sided desert/vegetation camo uniform used in Africa.

Their concealment skills aren't going to help either, as their "tracks" will lead the aboriginals straight to them.

Well the tracks are only helpful in telling you which way what you're trying catch went, it doesn't tell you where it is, which is the dangerous part.

Say the Aboriginals tracks down one of the two man teams, they follow the tracks. The Commandos however make usual stops to make sure their not being followed. At one point the Commandos will spot the ones who are trying to track them down, and when they do they'll know exactly what to do. The tactic is simple, lead your enemies into the open, and once they're there you pick them off one by one from long range.

Agreed, however if the aboriginals were to be used to engage the enemy, it would be in guerrilla type warfare, not stand in the open and throw a boomerang at them. They would simply appear out of the bush, kill one or two at a time with spears and then melt back into the landscape. If they can do this to animals, what chance has a human got?

That's a suicide mission against men wielding fully automatic rifles which can shoot through meter thick trees.

Also how are you to sneak up on them? First of all you have to track them to even get any idea of where they're going. Next you gotta be careful you've not been spotted whilst trying to find tracks, as an ambush might then very well be waiting right around the corner. And trust me, you don't wanna be ambushed by experts with machineguns.
 
Emac44,

Just because the KM decided not to involve forces in the indian ocean until 43 doesn't in any way mean they couldn't send boats to Australia. The decision which was made was not to start sending masses of boats to this area, that's all.

And as for the Australian mentality, again you're not supermen, you're just like everyone else; scared witless in the event of such an attack.


And finally, I'm not an American.
 
I dont care if you are german what you are proposing makes as much sense as building a hamster powered car.
And no i wasn't calling you racist.
1 more thing every scenerio you are proposing is seems that the germans know they are being followed, i doubt this would be the case unless they are all skitzofrenic. for example wildcat said that they would pick them off 1 at a time.
Can you imagine the horror of being in a strange place that you have never been to before and the added confusion of having your mates dissapering one at a time, sure you might try to lure them into a trap, but the aborigingals having 50 + thousand years tracking, hunting and killing animals might just catch onto that.
Remember german elite troops have been in Australia for what 6 weeks max, Aborigingals have been here 50 000 years plus.
As emac said you plan has got more holes than swiss cheese.
If you still think that you are right take note that on a forum dedicated to WW2 no one is agreeing with you.
 
:rolleyes:

Nothing crappy about the plan Aussie, only your understanding of it.

As for no'one agreeing with me, well tell me how do you know that ?? Not many have been involving themselves in this discussion at all.

You've only demonstrated that you're clueless Aussie, trying to compare animals with Humans. Well here's a news flash for you: Humans aren't easy to hunt down, esp. not when they're highly trained military professionals.

And as to the Germans being superhumans, now where the heck did that come from??! First I'm accused of being a stupid American then a Nazi! Such blatant accusations usually only come from someone who's run out of sensible arguments.

And as to your rude remarks, well you see kid calling others morons just doesn't get you anywhere, esp. in a place like this. So for you own sake, stop it.

Oh and finally, I'm not German either.
 
Emac44,

Just because the KM decided not to involve forces in the indian ocean until 43 doesn't in any way mean they couldn't send boats to Australia. The decision which was made was not to start sending masses of boats to this area, that's all.

And as for the Australian mentality, again you're not supermen, you're just like everyone else; scared witless in the event of such an attack.


And finally, I'm not an American.

Well I apologise to the Americans then Soren. But if the Kriegsmarine in 1942 decided not to send UBoats to the Indian Ocean in 1942 reflects upon your scenerio. YES or NO? To ignore the Kriegsmarine as a vital part in your scenerio means you are ignoring the very transportation your ELITE GERMAN TROOPS NEED for your scenerio to work. No one has said Australians are Supermen but I doubt very much that Brandenberg Elite Troops laden with tons of equipment without Kriegsmarine Uboats to convey them can swim 15,000 Sea Miles to Australia in 1942. WHAT PART OF THIS AREN'T YOU GETTING SOREN. YOU BASE SCENERIOS ON HISTORICAL EVENTS. THE HISTORICAL EVENTS FOR THE KRIEGSMARINE DOESN'T ADD UP TO YOUR SCENERIO. NO UBOATS FOR REASONS OF THE KRIEGSMARINE IN 1942 MEANS ONE THING. NO ATTACK AND YOUR SCENERIO IS NOW A NON EVENT
 
:rolleyes:

Nothing crappy about the plan Aussie, only your understanding of it.

As for no'one agreeing with me, well tell me how do you know that ?? Not many have been involving themselves in this discussion at all.

You've only demonstrated that you're clueless Aussie, trying to compare animals with Humans. Well here's a news flash for you: Humans aren't easy to hunt down, esp. not when they're highly trained military professionals.

And as to the Germans being superhumans, now where the heck did that come from??! First I'm accused of being a stupid American then a Nazi! Such blatant accusations usually only come from someone who's run out of sensible arguments.

And as to your rude remarks, well you see kid calling others morons just doesn't get you anywhere, esp. in a place like this. So for you own sake, stop it.

Oh and finally, I'm not German either.
Don't you dare call any one clueless Soren. There is no need for that. Yes I made the assumption you was an American stupid or otherwise. You read into my comment as you being an American as you being stupid. That was your own understanding of my post which you read into it. So no one offended you by your nationality. Now I read you referring to Aussie 101 as a clueless Aussie and he has the right to disagree with you. But your scenerio keeps falling down and often. You proposed a scenerio and we have picked holes in it. Which is our right to do just as you have the right to proposed the scenerio in the first place. I suggest as the kids say today Soren. You need to take a CHILL PILL. I think Soren you need to apologise to Aussie and him the same to you.

But what is coming out loud and clear from you Soren. You don't like having your ground rules changed or challenged by others. Its about time that you Soren begin to see your own shortcomings in this debate. Most on this forum will try to agree to disagree and try and see it from some one elses viewpoint. But you have not even attempted at any stage during this whole debate even remotely considered you maybe wrong or you maybe in error. And what is so comical by your replies concerning Australia you assume that WE AUSTRALIANS DON'T KNOW OUR OWN COUNTRY AND THAT ANY GERMAN ELITE TROOPS COULD EVADE AUSTRALIAN MILITARY IN OUR OWN BACK YARD. SO ACCORDING TO YOU SOREN ALL THE ALLIES WERE HOPELESS AND IT WAS GERMANY WHO WON WORLD WAR 2 SINGLE HANDED BY USING THE BRANDENBERG ELITE COMMANDO TROOPS
 
Not many have been involving themselves in this discussion at all.

I guess the thing is that when the 'discussion' starts to turn ugly, most people tend not to participate.

Some 'discussions' can get way out of hand. This happened one hours drive East of where I live...of course alcohol was involved!

"A FRUIT-picking trip to southern New South Wales ended in the death of a Scottish backpacker who became embroiled in a bizarre row about creationism and evolution."

Evolution vs creation row ends in stabbing | The Australian
 
I guess the thing is that when the 'discussion' starts to turns ugly, most people tend not to participate.

Some 'discussions' can get way out of hand. This happened one hours drive East of where I live...of course alcohol was involved!

Very well said Graeme, no need for the discussion to get "snarky". {that's English I think, I wonder if it has the same meaning in Oz? :D

Again the point of this thread was to explore the possibility of a smaller nation {in terms of Army} to use deception, and misdirection to force the defender to divert scarce resources to defending areas other than that which is the attackers objective. The British were very effective in doing this for the invasion od Sicily etc, with operation "Bodyguard", "Mincemeat" and others.

When I said the Axis plan a combined attack I meant JAPAN would make attacks against AUSTRALIA, and GERMANY would attack AMERICAN targets, thus forcing these two countries to divert forces to home defence that were urgently needed elsewhere. It makes much more sense for Germany to use it's resources against USA, as this is the country that will ultimately provide the airpower that will help win the war in Europe.

So just for arguments sake {and to end a rather snippy exchange}, assume that it is Japan that makes a few suicide attacks against Australia.

Graeme said:
As Wildcat pointed out the Darwin raid led to a panic flight of military personnel and civilians into the interior. A number of books have been published on the subject and conclude that it wasn't one of Australia's better moments in the war.

The raid itself, was however, described by Nagumo's biographer, Captain Matsushima Kiezo, as using a "sledgehammer to crack an egg."

I'm curious to hear more about the effects of Darwin attack, was there ever a public enquiry? Was the "panic" hushed up during wartime?
 
But remember, Darwin then had a population of approximately 2000 people.

"The response,

In the hours following the air raids on 19 February, believing that an invasion was imminent, Darwin's population began to stream southwards, heading for Adelaide River and the train south. Approximately half Darwin's civilian population ultimately fled. The panic in the town was repeated at the RAAF base, where servicemen deserted their stations in great numbers. Three days after the attack 278 servicemen were still missing. The exodus south (which later became known as 'The Adelaide River stakes'), and the looting and disorder which subsequently occurred, led the government to hurriedly appoint a Commission of Inquiry led by Mr Justice Lowe which issued two reports, one on 27 March and the other on 9 April 1942."


Fact sheets - National Archives of Australia

Australian Travel - Northern Territory - History of Darwin

 
Well I apologise to the Americans then Soren. But if the Kriegsmarine in 1942 decided not to send UBoats to the Indian Ocean in 1942 reflects upon your scenerio. YES or NO? To ignore the Kriegsmarine as a vital part in your scenerio means you are ignoring the very transportation your ELITE GERMAN TROOPS NEED for your scenerio to work. No one has said Australians are Supermen but I doubt very much that Brandenberg Elite Troops laden with tons of equipment without Kriegsmarine Uboats to convey them can swim 15,000 Sea Miles to Australia in 1942. WHAT PART OF THIS AREN'T YOU GETTING SOREN. YOU BASE SCENERIOS ON HISTORICAL EVENTS. THE HISTORICAL EVENTS FOR THE KRIEGSMARINE DOESN'T ADD UP TO YOUR SCENERIO. NO UBOATS FOR REASONS OF THE KRIEGSMARINE IN 1942 MEANS ONE THING. NO ATTACK AND YOUR SCENERIO IS NOW A NON EVENT

And what part of JUST BECAUSE THE KM DECIDED NOT SEND MASSES OF SUBS TO THE INDIAN OCEAN IN 42 DOESN'T IN ANY WAY MEAN THEY COULDN'T RUN PATROLS THERE dont you understand Emac44 ?

Remember this a hypothetical scenario of what could be done, and one thing is for certain, the KM boats could go to the Indian Ocean when'ever they wanted.

Your argument just simply doesn't hold any water Emac44, cause what you're suggesting is the same as saying "the man walked right so he couldn't have walked left if he had or wanted to". Seriously does that make any sense to you ??

As for Aussie1001, I definitely don't owe him any apology! If you look back clueless is what I've called him, I didn't follow his example and called him a moron, there's a HUGE difference!

Oh, and I never claimed that you Aussies didn't know yor back yard, ofcourse you do, but that doesn't mean the Germans don't know it either.
 
Freebird,

I know what you mean, I am just merely elaborating on what was possible.

The best use of the Brandenburgers would ofcourse be against the US, while the Japanese would be used against Australia. I just doubt how successful a Japanese operation will be, it's not like an Asian guy blends in very well with the Australian public if you know what I mean ;) The only real effective thing to do for the Japanese was use suicide bombers ofcourse, which also undoubtedly would scare he sh*t out of anyone.
 
And what part of JUST BECAUSE THE KM DECIDED NOT SEND MASSES OF SUBS TO THE INDIAN OCEAN IN 42 DOESN'T IN ANY WAY MEAN THEY COULDN'T RUN PATROLS THERE dont you understand Emac44 ?

Remember this a hypothetical scenario of what could be done, and one thing is for certain, the KM boats could go to the Indian Ocean when'ever they wanted.

Your argument just simply doesn't hold any water Emac44, cause what you're suggesting is the same as saying "the man walked right so he couldn't have walked left if he had or wanted to". Seriously does that make any sense to you ??

As for Aussie1001, I definitely don't owe him any apology! If you look back clueless is what I've called him, I didn't follow his example and called him a moron, there's a HUGE difference!

Oh, and I never claimed that you Aussies didn't know yor back yard, ofcourse you do, but that doesn't mean the Germans don't know it either.

Soren I deal in factual not hypothetical. I can understand that you wish to examine a hypothetical area. But you are forgetting that even in hypothetical it has to match to reality at times and has to match to historical. Plainly the Kriegmarine decided in 1942 that it wasn't profitable to send any UBoat to the Indian Ocean. Even when and after the Japanese suggested this same idea to the Kriegmarine in 1942. And there is no denying this or trying to come up with an alternative. The only person who believes my arguements against your scenerio doesn't hold water is yourself Soren. And not only myself but several others have picked holes in your scenerio. Soren I suggest you examine why your scenerio is faulty before you type a response to this post.

And as this is hypothetical as you are suggesting Soren. Then here is a hypothetical for you.

1 Kriegsmarine Naval Codes rebroken in January 1942
2 Abwehr infilitarted by Allies MI6. MI6 places agents to work alongside Caneris
3 Caneris relays all forthcoming Abwehr infiltration missions of importance to the MI6 operating in Madrid Spain.
4 German Submarine Pens raided by British Commandos and assited by French and Norwegian Resistance in last week of January 1942. Effectively crippling German Submarine movements from French and Norwegian Coast and Harbours
5 SS and SD absorb Abwehr into their organisations (this actually occured in 1944 after the assasination attempt on Hitler)
6 Kriegsmarine Uboat sorties into the Cape of Good Hope of South Africa in late 1942 fail as Kriegsmarine codes already broken earlier in the year were used and Allies are well aware of the rendevous points for Uboats in this area
7 Incusions into the Indian Ocean by the Kriegsmarine delayed until 1944 due to operational failures in the above sentence
8 Monsoonial Weather in Indian Ocean becomes extreme with frequent cyclones and typhoons concurrent and effects all types of shipping
9 Australian AIF return to Australia. 6th and 7th Divisions arrive in Western Australia after North African and Middle East Desert Campaings. Western Australian Regiments many of whom are experienced Bushmen from Western Australia bolster current defense positions near and around Perth and Freemantle
10 US Dutch Australian and British Naval units arrive in Freemantle
11 Two Squadrons 1 of RAAF and 1 of US Army AirForce figthers. Stationed near Geraldton. With further Desert Airstrips in Tindal Northern Territory coming into operations with Fighter Squadrons being deployed to repel and intercept Japanese air attacks
12 Coast Watchers in the Indonesian Islands and Australian AIF in Timor receive up to date radio equipment prior to the Japanese arrival in thoise areas

Now as for Aussie you both need to apologise to each other Soren for allowing yourselves to get overheated in this debate. And at no time did I refer to you as being STUPID. That you imagined yourself. I made the assumption that you was from the USA as I was certain I had seen a US Flag on your avtars and banners. How you got that I was referring to you as 1 Being Stupid and 2 Being a STUPID AMERICAN I have no idea. I don't insult people by their nationality Soren. Nor did I refer to you as a NAZI. I have no idea where you came up with that.

Now as for Australians knowing our own territory that is correct Soren we do. But to give you something to think about even by 1942 there were large tracts of land that even after 150 yrs of the Whiteman being here in Australia (1788 to 1942) was unexplored or no Whiteman had set foot on or been to particularly in Western Australia. So again unfortunately it isn't likely that German Troops would have detailed information on those areas when maps of the area didn't exsist until well after World War 2 Or the areas had been explored indepth. Guaranteed Soren any one venturing into those areas even in modern times takes risks and their lives into their own hands. It is that isolated and extreme. Even the Aborigines avoid by choice those areas in Western Australia. And what I had already explained to you Soren even if your scenerio was to take place attacking isolated communities on the Western Australian Coast would be pointless under the guidelines of Freebirds Scenerio. As no one would know for weeks or even months. Communications in 1942 to those areas was poor to say the very least. And was interrupted regularly.
 
Soren I deal in factual not hypothetical. I can understand that you wish to examine a hypothetical area. But you are forgetting that even in hypothetical it has to match to reality at times and has to match to historical.

Now as for Aussie you both need to apologise to each other Soren for allowing yourselves to get overheated in this debate. And at no time did I refer to you as being STUPID. That you imagined yourself. I made the assumption that you was from the USA as I was certain I had seen a US Flag on your avtars and banners. How you got that I was referring to you as 1 Being Stupid and 2 Being a STUPID AMERICAN I have no idea. I don't insult people by their nationality Soren. Nor did I refer to you as a NAZI. I have no idea where you came up with that..

Well said Emac, when dealing with "hypothetical" we have to deal with facts to make comparisons, otherwise it's just posturing.

I agree with your point about isolated areas, to be truly effective they would need to make sure the general population knows about it.

Perhaps the best help that Germany could give to Japan is advice on how to influence public opinion in a democracy, something that Japan did not really comprehend, and which Germany was proving to be masters at.
 
I deal with the facts Emac44, as knowing what DID happen is crucial if you want to know what COULD'VE happened, i.e. what was possible.

What you need to understand Emac44, is that because the KM decided not to have masses of U-boats run patrols in the Indian Ocean in 42 has absolutely nothing to do with their ability to do this or transport stuff to, from or through the the Indian Ocean. In 44 the KM U-boats weren't running patrols along the US coast anymore, yet they still successfully transported landed agents on US soil. And that's fact Emac.

Fact is also that the Abwehr was never infiltrated. Now while Canaris was doing what he could to get rid of Hitler, supplying the Allies with information of Hitler's where'abouts and such (in a hope that he would be assassinated), Canaris NEVER supplied the Allies with any info on any operation of the Abwehr. All Canaris wanted was getting rid of Hitler, other than that he wanted to win the war just as much as any other German.

Also a fact is that the German naval code was unbroken from Feb 1942 till Dec 1942.

As to yor points about areas of Australia being without detailed maps, well ofcourse it would be risky for the Germans to go to these far outskirts, but 1.) Why should they do that? What would be the purpose of doing such? 2.) You're forgetting that it would be equally risky for the Aussies to venture into these areas.
 
Fact is also that the Abwehr was never infiltrated. Now while Canaris was doing what he could to get rid of Hitler, supplying the Allies with information of Hitler's where'abouts and such (in a hope that he would be assassinated), Canaris NEVER supplied the Allies with any info on any operation of the Abwehr. All Canaris wanted was getting rid of Hitler, other than that he wanted to win the war just as much as any other German.

Also a fact is that the German naval code was unbroken from Feb 1942 till Dec 1942.
.

Do you have any information about German commando operations outside of continental Europe? {or British operations inside Europe} Would they normally be given instructions only once and then set out on their own command? Or would they keep in contact every week or month? It seems like this was one of the weaknesses of the U-boat operations, the need to radio in to HQ, which usually gave away too much info.
 
The Brandenburgers performed operations in Africa, much like the SAS.

As for radio transmissions, well plans were never transmitted uncoded. The Enigma machine was the main communications tool when talking about or dealing out missions.
 
I deal with the facts Emac44, as knowing what DID happen is crucial if you want to know what COULD'VE happened, i.e. what was possible. (AND THE SCENERIO I PUT UP SOREN WAS POSSIBLE AS WELL. THERE ARE NO RIGHT OR WRONGS IN A SCENERIO BUT REMEMBER IN THE SCENERIO THERE IS COUNTERING PROBLEMS IN THE SCENERIO. THIS IS WHAT SOME OF US ARE TRYING TO SAY TO YOU SOREN)

What you need to understand Emac44, is that because the KM decided not to have masses of U-boats run patrols in the Indian Ocean in 42 has absolutely nothing to do with their ability to do this or transport stuff to, from or through the the Indian Ocean. In 44 the KM U-boats weren't running patrols along the US coast anymore, yet they still successfully transported landed agents on US soil. And that's fact Emac. (SOREN I AM NOT DOUBTING THAT THE KRIEGSMARINE TRANSPORTED AGENTS TO THE USA BY SUBMARINE. BUT BARING IN MIND ALSO THAT EVERY 1XD2 UBOAT SENT TO THE INDIAN OCEAN IN GRUPPE MONSUN WAS SUNK. THE VERY UBOAT TYPE YOU HAD ENVISIONED IN YOUR SCENERIO FOR 1942)

Fact is also that the Abwehr was never infiltrated. Now while Canaris was doing what he could to get rid of Hitler, supplying the Allies with information of Hitler's where'abouts and such (in a hope that he would be assassinated), Canaris NEVER supplied the Allies with any info on any operation of the Abwehr. All Canaris wanted was getting rid of Hitler, other than that he wanted to win the war just as much as any other German. (CANERIS BETRAYED GERMANY AS SUCH THE GOVERNMENT OF THE DAY. WHICH WAS THE NAZI PARTY. AND HIM BETRAYING ABWEHR CAN BE A DISTINCT POSSIBLITY AS WELL SOREN. JUST BETRAYING INFORMATION TO THE ALLIES NO MATTER HOW MUCH OR HOW LITTLE ETC IS STILL BETRAYING THE COUNTRY SOREN)

Also a fact is that the German naval code was unbroken from Feb 1942 till Dec 1942. (AH BUT THIS IS THE HYPOTHETICAL. THE POSSIBILITY THAT THE ENIGMA NAVAL CODES BEING REBROKEN AT DISTINCT POSSIBILITY)

As to yor points about areas of Australia being without detailed maps, well ofcourse it would be risky for the Germans to go to these far outskirts, but 1.) Why should they do that? What would be the purpose of doing such? 2.) You're forgetting that it would be equally risky for the Aussies to venture into these areas.
(YES BUT WE WOULD BE IN OUR OWN COUNTRY THE GERMANS WOULDN'T BE)

This is what you are failing to see Soren. I know its a hypothetical and as such it is fictious in the main. I do know that Soren. However I will still claim we have to in this case rely on the factual. What the Kriegsmarine actually did to what you are proposing. I know the Kriegsmarine sent Surface Raiders into the Indian Ocean from 1939 to 1941. But this wasn't exploited to a greater degree by the Kriegsmarine. And again it would be that the Germans concentrated in the Atlantic

And as it is a hypothetical scenerio for each and every part of the scenerio is a counter part to your scenerio that is being put back to you as the reasons why your hypothetical scenerio would have problems in succeeding. This is what I am trying to express to you

For example. In your hypothetical Brandenberg Troops land in or around Broome Western Australia. But upon landing they find their ammunition has been effected by heat conditions and seepage of diesel oil inside the Submarine. Rendering their ammunition in-effective and useless. That is the hypothetical. But seeing we have to deal in reality and factual in the scenerio guided by what problems occured with Kriegsmarine in the Indian Ocean from 1943 to 1945 Gruppe Monsun Operation one has to be aware of that as well.
NOW DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT SOME OF US ARE TRYING TO EXPLAIN TO YOU SOREN.
FOR EVERY SCENERIO YOU CAN DEVISE OTHERS CAN COUNTER IT WITHIN THE SCENERIO

AND OUT OF GENERAL INTEREST SOREN. IN WHICH COUNTRY DO YOU ACTUALLY LIVE IN OR COME FROM. THIS ISN'T A SLIGHT AGAINST YOU BUT JUST INTERESTED THAT IS ALL
 

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