Would WWII Australian public opinion be affected by a Japanese commando attack?

[Soren]

Good points Freebird.

 

[Freebird]

I have a question for Emac, Graeme the other Aussie's, what was the political situation like in 1941-1942 Australia? Was there any debate about the war strategy or was it more like a "unity government"?

How did the public feel about sending troops to fight in N.Guinea Singapore?

I know some about UK, US Canadian WWII politics but not as much about "down under"

 

[Emac44]

Freebird in the early part of WW2 from 1939 to 1941 the Menzie Conservative Govt was in Power. But the feeling towards volunterring for active service by Australians was generally except as part of doing one's duty for King Empire and Country. As the feelings were similar to those ANZACs who volunteered for World War 1 1914-18. Service in WW2 was seen by many as the passing of the Torch from the previous Generation (WW1) to the Generation of WW2. This was universially similar although World War 2 regardless when the Curtain Government (Australian Labour Party) came to power in late 1941. Sending Troops overseas regardless of whence those Troops would see service was an Empire Duty Freebird. So it didn't cause any great problems if the 8th Division went to Singapore for what was then Garrison Duty or the 6th 7th and 9th Division were in North Africa Greece and Palistine. As for the Royal Australian Navy they saw service just like the RAAF in all areas of World War 2. But that changed in 1942 with the Fall of Singapore. When the Curtain Government insisted the 2nd AIF was to come home immediately to defend Australia and New Guinea. But the 9th Division after El Alemain was to come home as soon as possible. 6ht and 7th Divisions came home with some Regiments respectfuly staying in North Africa and Palistine. The Curtain Govt was unimpressed with Winston Churchill. As Churchill disregarded Australia's fear of invasion. But Curtain prevailed over Churchills objections. Even though Churchill tried to divert Australian Troopships to Rangoon and other Troopships were diverted to Dutch East Indies. To give you a total abstract idea into Australian Politcs at the time Freebird would take some time. Hope I answered some of your queries

 

[Emac44]

Emac44,

Most of your questions have already been answered but I'll go into detail here;

First of all it wouldn't be a problem reaching the US or let alone Australia undiscovered by U-boat, the Germans continued to run undiscovered all over the Atlantic throughout the war, often right outside the US coast. The only time the Uboats were really risking getting caught were when attacking convoys or running on the surface. Furthermore the German naval code was anything but broken in 1942, new wheels continuously being added to the enigma machine.

Also many of the operations carried out by the Abwehr were so secret that even Hitler didn't know about them. Hitler would often order similar missions carried out, but the details he was always left without. The planning of the operation was kept entirely within the Abwehr. So the details of an operation like the one suggested by Freebird would've been kept completely within closed doors.

As for Allied covert infiltrations, well I am completely unaware of the Abwehr ever being infiltrated throughout the war, according to my sources it never happened, no attempts of ever trying such even being mentioned at all. On the other hand the Abwehr were responsible for many of the captures of Allied OSS personnel. In Holland yes but France Norway And many other European Countries had operatives working for the Allies who were not captured

So infiltrating the Abwehr was pretty much impossible, and didn't happen. Thus the operation wasn't going to be blown before launching. Got bad news for you. Abhwer codes had been broken by MI5 Betchly Park

Infact similarly secretive operations as the one suggested were carried out by the Germans in WW2, and this was just like suggested in Freebird's scenario accomplished with transport by Uboat: Yes One or Two men not a flaming Regiment

uboat.net - U-boat Operations - German saboteur landings in June 1942
uboat.net - U-boat Operations

Heck even in late 1944 (Nov), with the German naval code long broken did the Abwehr manage to secretly land two agents in the states: And still this was only 2 men not 150 men as your scenerio is suggesting

uboat.net - U-boat Operations - German agents land in Nov 1944

So the operation is very much possible. No the operation would be near impossible to transport 150 plus men 15,000 sea miles by submarine. Logistically speaking it would be doomed to failure

Moving on..

As for how many U-boats would be needed, well one or two at most. Emptying the rear torpedo room in a Type IXC and you've got enough room for nearly all the equipment needed, while the light equipment can easily be stashed away all over the boat. The rubber boats could be packed away in the top cargo hold originally intended for additional torpedoes.

Again Soren you have overlooked the Logistics of sending Uboats some 12,000 to 15,000 Sea Miles across Not only the Atlantic but also the Indian or the Pacific and still you haven't addressed refueling them adequately. And by your recomendation how many Submarines to transport these men some 15,000 Sea miles by Uboat and have them refuelled and considering Japan being abled to assist. In early 1942 to mid 1942 without their own Transports and Refueling Vessels being sighted by US British Dutch and Australian Submarines operating of Freemantle in Western Australia which patrolled the Dutch East Indies Indian Ocean and Philippine Seas. I am sorry Soren you haven't addressed it at all. You imagine crossing the Atanltic as the German Uboats had done on numerous occassions is a piece of Cake. So it would be easy to cross the Indian or the Pacific with large Uboat Force to transport these men to Australian Shores. You are great on arming your supposive Elite German Troops but poor on Logistics. And the Abwehr Codes had been broken by the Allies at Betchly Park. And Japanese Naval Codes had also been broken Soren. And most of the Code Breakers in Australia were Australians who worked for British Intelligence

So Move on yourself Soren as you have dismissed having your scenerio questioned on LOGISTICS and came up lacking

 

[Emac44]

I'm afraid that I'm mostly responsible for this unpleasant scenario...



I was actually thinking that this would be a coordinated attack by both Japan Germany, with the Japanese attacking Pacific targets the Germans against the Atlantic ones.



Quite true. But AFAIK, the Allies lost the ability to read the transmissions in Oct/Nov 41, with the new code, and more problems in Feb '42 with the introduction of the 5 wheel enigma. If the operation is planned sent out with instructions there is a good possibility that the Allies won't know exacly what is going on, the problem with the U-boats was that with their type of operation they were often getting instructions from HQ, which gave away the plans to the Allies. I'm basing this on {1} the Allies were not able to pin down exactly what Japan was going to do on Dec 7, only a general idea that something was going on. {2} Even though the British warned the USN about operation "Drumbeat" in Jan 42, there was nothing that could really be done about it, too few ASW assets. In fact it took over 3 months to sink the first U-boat off of the US coast.

As for Japan, I imagine that they would have "tested the waters", by sending a few small freighters around the Aussie coast in the summer of '41, to see how vigilant the RAN was. If it seems that there are too many patrol craft, then insertation by sub would be the option used. In any event, the Japanese were good at living off the land, a few dozen guys could create havoc confusion all over the place, and of course no evacuation is needed, as they would fight to the last man.



Very good points. I would think that the key here for Germany is that with advance notice they can achieve much more, and could have the supply subs in place on the US atlantic coast to keep the operation going

Yes I agree the Japanese were good at landing some operatives and laying of Coast But Soren is imagining sending German Uboats with 150 German Commandos 15,000 Sea Miles. Across Indian Pacific and Atlantic to supposively contact Japanese Refuelling in either Pacific or Indian Ocean. Submarines are covert by their very nature but an on surface refuelling vessel isn't Freebird. The Germans were only abled to manage 2 or 3 Operatives by Submarine on the Atlanitic Coast of South and North America but Soren is asking us to believe sending 150 German Commandos 15,000 sea miles. And again I say it would be near impossible

 

[Freebird]

The Curtain Govt was unimpressed with Winston Churchill. As Churchill disregarded Australia's fear of invasion. But Curtain prevailed over Churchills objections. Even though Churchill tried to divert Australian Troopships to Rangoon and other Troopships were diverted to Dutch East Indies. To give you a total abstract idea into Australian Politcs at the time Freebird would take some time. Hope I answered some of your queries

thanks for the info. Was there a 'peace' party or a "isolationist" faction in Australia? {perhaps thinking that if the Commonwealth didn't interfere with Japan in China or Indonesia that war could be avoided?}

I don't know if you know this, but part of Churchill's problem with Australia was caused by Canadian political difficulties. {not that I am defending his poor performance as defence minister} The British Chief of the Army approached Canada in 1941 to send troops to N. Africa to replace the Australians who {quite rightly} wanted to pull troops back to the PTO. Canada declined because {they said} they only wanted the Canadian Corps to participate in a more "prestigeous" operation in Europe. The real reason is that the liberal government was desperate to avoid casualties so as to avoid conscription, a political minefield in Quebec. The support for the war effort in Canada is listed at about 65% during this time, but this consists of 85-90+ % support in English Canada, and only about 25% support in Quebec {after the Surrender of France of course}

Yes I agree the Japanese were good at landing some operatives and laying of Coast But Soren is imagining sending German Uboats with 150 German Commandos 15,000 Sea Miles. Across Indian Pacific and Atlantic to supposively contact Japanese Refuelling in either Pacific or Indian Ocean. Submarines are covert by their very nature but an on surface refuelling vessel isn't Freebird. The Germans were only abled to manage 2 or 3 Operatives by Submarine on the Atlanitic Coast of South and North America but Soren is asking us to believe sending 150 German Commandos 15,000 sea miles. And again I say it would be near impossible

Yes i agree it would be more difficult for Germany to make it too Australia, I would think that they would be used on the US East coast, to interfere with US plans to send troops to Europe. It would be more in Japan's interest to provoke worry dissent in Australia to prevent the Commonwealth from interfering with Japanese plans in Maylasia Indonesia etc.

If the Allies had really been serious they could have prevented the Singapore debacle with a couple more regiments, a few dozen tanks a hundred or so more P-40's or Hurricanes. Unfortunatly for us Churchill was slow to react. It would have been interesting to see what would happen in Singapore if it was under the command of someone experienced in Siege warfare, like Morsehead.

Luckily for the Allies the Japanese Germans were so overconfident that they never saw the need for these type of operations, because I think it would have been a big problem for the Allies if they had

 

[Emac44]

And what Soren didn't mention that Wilhelm Caneris who was hanged by the NAZI's in 1944 after the attempted Assaination Plot of Hitler had been in dispute with Himmler and his SD and SS Intelligence Services from 1940 to 1942 as well And Caneris did have his own spy network as opposed to the SD and SS . Abhwer had successes yes Freebird but Wilhelm Caneris and some of his own Intelligence Staff members were lose cannons and had supplied information to the Allies. Including from June 1941 to 1943 Caneris opposing gaining intelligence from Soviet POWs. So when I mentioned Abhwer had been infiltrated and was comprimised it certainly was by no less than Caneris himself. So now the Scenerio takes a different twist.

Soren's Plan goes ahead and Caneris betrays it to the Allies.
1 Caneris Leaks the size of the German Elite Corps exsistence
2 Caneris leaks all details of the mission
3 Caneris leaks information on Submarine movements detailed for the Commando Raid
4 Caneris leaks the Target and agendas
5 Caneris passes on all codes and information
6 Caneris leaks the refueling points for Submarines
7 Caneris passes the information to British Intelligence via Madrid through intermediataries
8 Caneris Information is evaluated by British Intelligence
9 British Intelligence sends in their own teams to monitor Brandenberg Troop movements
10 British Intelligence passes on all information to Australian Intelligence
11 Royal Australian Navy Royal Navy RAAF and Australian Imperial Land Forces await German Submarines to arrive capturing or destroying Submarines. Taking as Prisoners of War all survivors of the failed Commando Mission.


As for peace movements in Australia. The Australian Communists and Australian Socialist like their British Counterparts opposed the War with Germany Freebird. It wasn't until the USSR had been attacked did the Communists and Socialist come on side. Mainly the opposition to the war came about with Stalin's Non Agression Pacts with the Axis Freebird

 

[Soren]

Emac44,

No, I haven't overlooked logistics. The German U-boats could go a very long way before they needed refueling, something which you seem to have missed. Furthermore there were the "milkcows", U-boats dedicated to refuel resupply German U-boats operating a long way from home.

The Type IXC has a range of 13,800 miles (22,080 km), and with milk cows to resupply refuel it on the way home it would have no problems what'so'ever reaching Australia. But a type even better for this operation is the Type IXD, a very large boat with a lot of space and a range 23,700 miles (37,920 km), this boat wouldn't even need milk cows.

Also when'ever did two U-boats become a large U-boat force ? Does it sound like a big U-boat force to you ?? Come on Emac44, seriously.

 

[Soren]

And what Soren didn't mention that Wilhelm Caneris who was hanged by the NAZI's in 1944 after the attempted Assaination Plot of Hitler had been in dispute with Himmler and his SD and SS Intelligence Services from 1940 to 1942 as well And Caneris did have his own spy network as opposed to the SD and SS . Abhwer had successes yes Freebird but Wilhelm Caneris and some of his own Intelligence Staff members were lose cannons and had supplied information to the Allies. Including from June 1941 to 1943 Caneris opposing gaining intelligence from Soviet POWs. So when I mentioned Abhwer had been infiltrated and was comprimised it certainly was by no less than Caneris himself. So now the Scenerio takes a different twist.

Soren's Plan goes ahead and Caneris betrays it to the Allies.
1 Caneris Leaks the size of the German Elite Corps exsistence
2 Caneris leaks all details of the mission
3 Caneris leaks information on Submarine movements detailed for the Commando Raid
4 Caneris leaks the Target and agendas
5 Caneris passes on all codes and information
6 Caneris leaks the refueling points for Submarines
7 Caneris passes the information to British Intelligence via Madrid through intermediataries
8 Caneris Information is evaluated by British Intelligence
9 British Intelligence sends in their own teams to monitor Brandenberg Troop movements
10 British Intelligence passes on all information to Australian Intelligence
11 Royal Australian Navy Royal Navy RAAF and Australian Imperial Land Forces await German Submarines to arrive capturing or destroying Submarines. Taking as Prisoners of War all survivors of the failed Commando Mission.


As for peace movements in Australia. The Australian Communists and Australian Socialist like their British Counterparts opposed the War with Germany Freebird. It wasn't until the USSR had been attacked did the Communists and Socialist come on side. Mainly the opposition to the war came about with Stalin's Non Agression Pacts with the Axis Freebird

If this were the case then please Emac44, explain to me how it was possible for the Germans to successfully carry out similar operations on many other occasions, one even in late 44 ??

The Germans not only could carry out such an operation, they did, several times.

 

[Aussie1001]

Soren you are talking poo.
you seem to be the only one who thinks it can be managed.
What is your reply to the fact that the british had cracked the german navel code thanks partly to one of the first computers ever built, Colossus
how is your german army supposed to get to australia when we already know.
a) when you will set off from your starting point.
b) Roughly when you will get here
and c) where and when you land.
How can you defend against an enemy who already knows your whole mission details?
answer you can't.

 

[Emac44]

And Soren you have made the CLAIM that Abhwer wasn't comprimised by the ALLIES. History disputes that claim. As the leader of the Abhwer Caneris was hanged by the NAZIs in 1944 for TREASON. Trying to asssasinate and being implicated in the PLOT to kill Hitler. And Caneris had already supplied information to the ALLIES Previously. Caneris himself opposed Hitler Himmler Goering and the NAZI Party in Germany. Caneris was a LOYAL German. That doesn't mean he was a LOYAL NAZI.

Those were small operation Soren of one or two men. But again you are suggesting a Flaming fully equiped Regiment . And Again you believe Abhwer was not comprimised which History states otherwise. Maybe when you start playing the Scenerio Game you better believe it Soren I will come up with Scenerios of my own to refute yours

Your scenerio bases itself on
1 Abhwer Operation
2 Brandenberg Troops
3 Forgetting that Abhwer itself wasn't secure. After all Soren you made it pretty well certain that Abhwer wasn't comprimised as an Intelligence Service
4 Himmeler his SD and SS Intelligence Service not finding out about supposed operations by Abhwer
5 The Allies Intelligence Service themselves








And Soren you may find German Armed Forces during WW2 sexy or supermen. I don't. Your Scenerio has more holes in it then Swiss Cheese and your own stubborness can't visualize you had made errors and miscalculations. And Caneris being one of the lynch pins with Abhwer being unreliable ( which History Proves he was) in a full scale operations. There is a big difference launching a 1 to 5 men Commando Squad on the American Continent to a 150 man operation stretched over 15,000 Sea Miles to a diverse continent on the other side of the world from Germany. Admit it Soren your scenerio is over ambitious

 

[Soren]

The Abwehr wasn't infiltrated by the Allies, that's what I said. That Canaris supplied the Allies with some information is another story.

Also Emac44 it's really sad that you have to twist what I say in order for it to fit your own argument. Cause first of all I never mentioned 150 men being sent, it was 75 men! Somehow you found the need to double this figure.

Also Emac44, you have failed to answer my question as to how the Germans were able to successfully launch similar operations right up till late 1944 ??

Also you CLAIM that the German naval code was broken in 42, fact is though that the German naval code was anything BUT broken in 42. So again there goes that right out the window.

You also claim that the German subs couldn't ahve travelled that far without being discovered, while in reality the German subs not only did this throughout the war but they did it on a regular basis, and they were rarely caught. Heck you wer even cocky enough to CLAIM that the German subs couldn't travel that far without havng to be refueled! However once again you were wrong, very wrong.

So it is your argument Emac44 which is as holed as Swiss cheese, NOT mine!

 

[Emac44]

And again Soren you are wrong considering that the 1xd2 Uboats were built for long range and only 28 were built but also their engines and motors were not replaced until June 1943 U195 being an example. Which places it well outside your scenerio in 1942. Of the Ixd1 U180 being an example only 2 were built and these were for speed. And again with the 6 Daimler Benz Engines MB501 on this varient of Submmarine came mechanical problems. Such Mechanical problems of overheating and emissions of white exhaust fumes whilst surfaced was a tell taled trace to its exsistence. As there was only ONE incident of a Type 1xd2 Uboat reaching Penang Island West Coast of Malaya in September 1943 and damaged and captured in Batavia 1945 after being transferred to the Imperial Japanese Navy in May 1945 after Germany's Surrender. But this vessel still didn't arrive in Penang until September of 1943 which places it well outside your scenerio dates BUT IT ALSO REFUELLED AT VICHY FRENCH ISLAND OF MADAGASSCAR ENROUTE. YES IT MAY HAVE HAD 23,000 NACTICUL MILE RANGE BUT IT APPEARS IT NEEDED TO REFUEL BEFORE REACHING PENANG or it that something else you didn't know Soren. I am referring to the operation Munson. Yes this UBoat had hunted of the Australian and New Zealand Coastlines and had scored less then 7 Allied Merchant Ships it again places it well outside your early 1942 scenerio.

And its yourself Soren who can't seem to comprehend that it was Caneris who was in charge of Abhwer who betrayed not only the plans of Germany to invade Poland in 1939 to the British and French Governments. But also betrayed the Barbarosa Plans to the British in June 1941 and the as for your PLAN Caneris would most likely betray that as well. Which you can't seem to get into your head. Your Security of your PLAN is Comprimised. And again you claim that the German Naval Codes remained unbroken and HISTORY again proves you wrong on this. From all the source I HAVE READ for a period of time in 1942 German Naval Codes were unavailable due to Enigma changes. However by late 1942 to early 1943 Ultra and Colossaus were abled to read German Military codes including KriegsMarine. This is another oversight of yours Soren. And as such I direct your attention to Operation Torch in North Africa of late 1942. It was imperative that the Allies knew the operation of UBoat Command. So again you are wrong very wrong Soren. Even when that short period of time early 1942 when Ultra had problems deciphering KriegsMarine Codes and it was known as the 2nd Happy Time for UBoat Submarine Crews it didn't last the year Soren. By Mid 1942 to early 1943 Engima Codes were being read using Ultra and Collauses and continued right to wars end.

And still Soren HISTORY proves you WRONG AGAIN

1 Kriegsmarine Codes rebroken in mid 1942 to early 1943 by Collasus and Ultra Machines. Which was imperative as Operation Torch was due in late 1942
2 1xd1 type Submarine Engine and Motor Problems 2 built
3 1xd2 type Submarine 28 built. of that only 1 Uboat arrived Penang Island September 1943
4 Type XX Uboat construction Terminated 1943 AG Weser Bremen Construction. Contracts U1601 through U1615 and U1701 Through UBoats 1715 were all cancelled never built
5 Type XXI never left the drawing boards

And again Soren it is yourself who has imagined the scenerio to take place in early 1942 and the above information you yourself supplied makes it impossible for such an attack to take place as your Submarine Transport isn't available as HISTORY again proves until September of 1943 of 1xd2 Engine refit
And the 1xd1s only 2 built with engine and mechanical problems. Overheating and White fumes coming from exhausts

Now you explain to me how you are going to carry out your scenerio
1 Without Submarine Transport until September 1943 as your scenerio takes place in early 1942 as it appears you ain't going to transport jackshit in early 1942 let alone 75 men or 150 men as the BLOODY SUBMARINES are in dry dock getting refitted
2 Lapses in Enigma Coding and I presume your plans taking conception in 1941 when the British prior to February of 1942 has Read ENIGMA CODING and by mid 1942 to end of war had regained the ENIGMA CODE READING
3 Your lapses in security with Caneris
4 And you have also forgotten that by 1942 to 1945 Germany may have well built Submarines but her resources were being guided not just to Submarine building but also other areas that needed steel and engineering. As Germany was being pressed not only to build Submarines but also Aircraft Tanks and all other weapons. With her Supply lines also being attacked in the Baltic Regions and Germany's Docks Cities Manufacturing and supply depots coming under attack by the RAF and USAF by daylight and night bombing raids. Plus Germany pouring Mitlitary needs in the attack of USSR;. All this would not benefit Germany in her ability to sustain her War Effort. But still trying to maintaining attacks by UBoats on Allied Shipping but having to disperse her UBoat Fleets in the Atlantic to the Russian Convoy routes and that U Boat Fleet coming under sustained attack from the Allies
5 And if Ultra and Collasuas were such a failure as you are claiming. Then explain to me why 8 out of 10 Uboat and Crews failed to return by the end of the WAR and had fallen victim to USN RN RCN and Allied AirCraft hunting UBoats
6 And have you considered that changes in Command had taken place in the KriegsMarine with Raeder and Dornitz would have effected UBoat and Surface Raiders effectiveness during WW2. It seems you haven't

To many Swiss Cheese Holes again Soren in your scenerio

 

[Soren]

Again you're the one who is wrong Emac44,

The Type IXD2's were running patrols from early 42 till wars end, and their engines weren't refitted.

uboat.net - U-boat Types

And all the rest you have posted is equally wrong, and ofcourse without reference, no surprise.

Fact is that the Enigma was unbroken from Feb 42 to Dec 1942, a period of 10½ months! (Thank the M4 for this)

 

[SeaSkua]

The Abwehr wasn't infiltrated by the Allies, that's what I said. That Canaris supplied the Allies with some information is another story.

Would any commando operation be run by ABWEHR?

Was Canaris an ALLIED agent?

 

[Soren]

Would any commando operation be run by ABWEHR?

No not at all, but the Brandenburger regiment was part of the Abwehr.

Was Canaris an ALLIED agent?

No, but he supplied the Allies with some information, his goal being assassinating Hitler. Not so strange seeing that Hitler was doing a better job of destroying Germany than the Allies ever could.

 

[Glider]

Again you're the one who is wrong Emac44,

The Type IXD2's were running patrols from early 42 till wars end, and their engines weren't refitted.

uboat.net - U-boat Types

And all the rest you have posted is equally wrong, and ofcourse without reference, no surprise.

Fact is that the Enigma was unbroken from Feb 42 to Dec 1942, a period of 10½ months! (Thank the M4 for this)

I think you will find using Uboat.net that only 5 Type IXD were in commission during 1942. The first patrol taking place in September 1942.

This will give a period of 3 months where Enigma was not broken and the five vessels were available..

 

[Soren]

I think you will find using Uboat.net that only 5 Type IXD were in commission during 1942. The first patrol taking place in September 1942.

This will give a period of 3 months where Enigma was not broken and the five vessels were available..

Then how come atleast three boats were on training patrols in Feb 42 ?

The IXD2 would've been available from Feb 42, so that's a 9½ month window.

Btw, 3 months is way more than would be needed.

 

[Glider]

There is a whole world of difference between training, going through work up and being a front line boat, ask anyone who has served on any naval vessel of any type, in any navy, at any time.

 

[Soren]

The purpose was training the crew for combat in the new boat, not something which would be necessary for a month long transportation mission.

Btw, does anyone have any information as to how well the major Australian cities were covered by radar ?