Would WWII Australian public opinion be affected by a Japanese commando attack?

[Soren]

Anything that involves lots of men and/or heavy weapons is doomed to failure

Hardly.

Unless severely damaging a city, and causing heavy casualties to the native forces thereby creating panic in the country is failure in your eyes.

If no more surprise attacks are possible, or if the unit is getting close to having its secret location discovered it can be extracted by the KM or Japanese navy. That way there are no dead bad guys to show the press.

If the unit is equipped as I listed then it would be a huge task to take them out.

As long as before they intiate their attack the commandos make sure to establish themselves around the targeted city, placing watch posts at each entry road and a good central hiding and defensive position, they will have a huge advantage. Commandeering cars from natives the night before the attack would be very smart as it will provide a good getaway option.

 

[pbfoot]

Hardly.

Unless severely damaging a city, and causing heavy casualties to the native forces thereby creating panic in the country is failure in your eyes.

If no more surprise attacks are possible, or if the unit is getting close to having its secret location discovered it can be extracted by the KM or Japanese navy. That way there are no dead bad guys to show the press.

If the unit is equipped as I listed then it would be a huge task to take them out.

As long as before they intiate their attack the commandos make sure to establish themselves around the targeted city, placing watch posts at each entry road and a good central hiding and defensive position, they will have a huge advantage. Commandeering cars from natives the night before the attack would be very smart as it will provide a good getaway option.

I may be incorrct but didn't the Aussies usually historicily hold the upper hand over the Germans and can't see where it would change when fighting on their home turf .

 

[Soren]

I may be incorrct but didn't the Aussies usually historicily hold the upper hand over the Germans and can't see where it would change when fighting on their home turf .

No the Aussies didn't hold anything over the Germans. The Aussie soldiers were very much like British army soldiers.

Sorry for saying it but from the beginning of the war and up until 1943 Germany was training its soldiers allot better than anyone else, the Wehrmacht training program being three times as long as that of any from the US UK.

 

[Graeme]

Stop some native trucks and cars at night and commandeer them out of the natives hands, stealing them, and taking the natives as hostages.

...and as they drive through the check point a cunning 'native' guard tells the lorry driver "You speak good English!" The driver replies "DANKE!" and the games up!

(Courtesy of a similar scene from the movie 'The Great Escape')

 

[Glider]

Hardly.

Unless severely damaging a city, and causing heavy casualties to the native forces thereby creating panic in the country is failure in your eyes.

If no more surprise attacks are possible, or if the unit is getting close to having its secret location discovered it can be extracted by the KM or Japanese navy. That way there are no dead bad guys to show the press.

If the unit is equipped as I listed then it would be a huge task to take them out.

As long as before they intiate their attack the commandos make sure to establish themselves around the targeted city, placing watch posts at each entry road and a good central hiding and defensive position, they will have a huge advantage. Commandeering cars from natives the night before the attack would be very smart as it will provide a good getaway option.

Anything that involves heavy weapons by definition makes it sizable and easily spotted. Looking at what you propose will prove the point.

You propose 75 trained troopsand arm them as follows

4 x 20mm Rheinmetall Solothurn S-18's : Long range anti-personnel rifle AT rifle.
You cannot carry these very far you will need transport at least one car for two guns 2 trucks 4 men
4 x 10.5cm LG.40 recoilless cannons
One truck each unless you fight where you land and remember you have to carry the ammo. 4 trucks 8 men (2 man crew)
5 x 120mm Mortars : Heavy artillery support
One truck each and a three man crew 5 trucks and 15 men
5 x 81mm Mortars : Medium artillery support
One truck each and a 2 man crew - 5 trucks and 10 men
10 x 50mm Mortars : Light artillery support
One truck for 2 mortars and 2 men 5 trucks and 10 men
2 x MG-34's with tripod : HMG, .
2 man crew per gun - 4 men

So we now have a force that consists of around 20 trucks and the supporting weapons have taken up 50 men.
Presumably you dont want to try this with only 25 infantry most of whom you have allocated to LMG and Snipers so you will need another 75 for the infantry role.

Do you really think that you can land 150+ people plus tons of heavy equipment and ammo, highjack 20+ trucks and hide for two days without anyone suspecting that anything is wrong.
Then surround a town (note that, a town, not a small hamlet) with your 75 infantry on foot without being spotted.
Plus to cap it all, bombard the town and get away is a fantasy.

Apart from anything else
a) what on earth are you going to land the men and equipment from.
b) Just how much damage do you think 4 x 105RCLs and 5 x 120mm mortars can do to a town
c) Small point, the FJ52 didn't work very well being to light for the full bore ammo
d) Who is going to be left to carry your dead let alone abandoned equipment away?
e) Also note that I said town you said City which is being really ambitious

 

[Wildcat]

No the Aussies didn't hold anything over the Germans.

Except the stubbern defence of a little known joint called Tobruk.

Seriously though Soren your plan would work initially, but after the location of the German commandos was established, I don't think they were going to just disappear or head off to the next city (with in Aust in those days would involve a couple days driving). I'm pretty sure the RAAF wouldn't be sitting idle but would be actively on the hunt and after revenge. I'm sure the Australian Army was a little bit more sophisticated then to send out a handful of trucks straight up a road towards the German positions. We had been at war since 1939 so I'm pretty sure our soldiers, Militia or not, knew something of infantry tactics, and whats to stop our guys from laying up an artillery barrage on the Commandos?
Also what do these commandos eat? once their rations are used up they're not going to be able to reach their sub because a) The Australian forces aren't just going to let them be off on their merry way and b) the sub commander isn't going to risk surfacing his boat in an area that by this time is being actively hunted by the RAAF and RAN.
Seriously your plan has more holes in it then swiss cheese.
I have no doubt that such a raid could have been initially successful, but to think that a hand full of commandos, no matter how elite they were, is going to run riot and spread fear and destruction across several cities spread across a HUGE country , is a tad bit silly. Once their location is disclosed, they are basically trapped until they are hunted down and destroyed.

 

[Soren]

Glider,

Seriously no offense meant but do you have any idea how small the equipment I proposed is ?? I have a feeling you don't.

I very much agree that heavy weaponry isn't a good idea, I know how these things affect such an operation. But all the equipment I propose is small and light, used extensively by the FallschimJäger which were dropped with this equipment, and they had to carry it along with them often over huge distances and sometimes in mountain terrain. This was no problem however as these weapons were very light.

Anyway one weapon at a time:

1. The LG.40 Recoilless cannon, a very small but very effective artillery piece:

You certainly wouldn't need a truck for that!

2. The Mortars, again small and highly effective.

3. Rheinmetall Solothurn S-18/1000, again not as big as you claim, and easily carried by two men (The weapon could be taken apart in seconds for transport). The whole weapon weighed 45 kg. Now I don't know about you but I can carry that easily, although not for many miles, the point being you certainly don't need a car, esp. since the weapon can be disassembled in parts. These babies were afterall used with succes by the FallschirmJäger in mountains amongst other places. (The long cold hammered barrel is what weighs I tell you!)

As you can see no trucks would be needed at all. But if you wanted you could pack them ALL into ONE truck. Now that's is a bit less than 20 eh ?

 

[Soren]

c) Small point, the FJ52 didn't work very well being to light for the full bore ammo

FJ52 ??? Full bore ammo ???

Incase you're talking about the FG-42 it wasn't too light at all. The FG-42 is a highly regarded weapon to this day, praised by gun experts as one of the finest smallarms ever built and by far the most advanced of WW2. Its characteristics can be summerized as such: Extremely precise, light, rugged, extremely comfortable and easy to wield, high rate of fire, easily handled in bursts, easily controlled on full auto when using the attached legs.

Anyway if you want an opinion from someone who actually fired the weapon try asking Les what he thought of it, if I recall correctly he said it was one of the greatest weapons from the last 70 years.

FG-42 fired full auto:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2CHkAVM67A

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwmUzz5Tl2A

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NakILDmzuA

As to the full bore ammo, well I have no clue where you got that from, but you're probably trying to say that the FG-42 used the full power 7.92x57mm round instead of the 7.92x33 Kurz used by the StG.44.

 

[Freebird]

As Wildcat pointed out the Darwin raid led to a panic flight of military personnel and civilians into the interior. A number of books have been published on the subject and conclude that it wasn't one of Australia's better moments in the war.

But if the Japenese did attack an Austrialian city with a suicide commando attack, it would definitely freak the citizens out in a big way. Same in the US or anywhere else. Especially if it was a sneak attack during the start of a war (as apposed to an action in the middle of a war).

I have been a little slow getting to this thread but it is an interesting idea. I don't think that a suicide mission would do much good. It may well cause some damage ad even a minor panic but there is one problem with a suicide mission.
The attackers are dead, the defenders can prove it, the attacks stop and the defenders can claim victory.
You need something more to be effective, continual small strikes that can cause significant damage, that happen again and again, spread uncertainty.

Anything that involves lots of men and/or heavy weapons is doomed to failure

Actually Glider there would be quite an advantage I think. The cost is not huge in terms of manpower, maybe 300 - 400 men spread out in 5 - 8 teams, some infantry, RR's, MG's mortars. The point would be to shock the public in the US Canada (and Aus.). The immediate goal of the Allies after "Pearl" should be to re-inforce the threatened outposts in the Solomons, New Guinea, Midway, Burma etc, to prevent the Japanese conquests. {its alot harder to re-capture islands jungle than it is to strongly defend it in the beginning} However it becomes extremely difficult for the President to tell the nation that they need to send troops aircraft to defend or fight for Tugali, Port Morseby, Tarawa etc. {places people have never heard of} when public opinion is overwhelmingly crying out for the army to defend America's shores {or Australia's}.

This is exactly the type of commando missions that should be made, which Adm. Keyes understood {and Mountbatten did not} The idea of the commando attack is to make the enemy think you plan to invade somewhere, you should never attack any target that you actually plan to invade. So the British commando attacks on Norway succeeded brilliantly, because Hitler sent several divisions there that could otherwise have been used against us. On the other hand, "Dieppe" was a fools mission, because {in addition to the heavy casualties} it made the Germans aware of some weaknesses in the Atlantic wall. Every battalion of troops every squadron of aircraft that is retained to defend America's shores {or Australia} are units that the Axis won't run into in the areas that they really do intend to attack.

By the way Soren, I like your idea of roving squads of commando's creating havoc in the rear area's. There will be thousands of checkpoints nationwide, with soldiers asking passing cars "How many home runs did Babe Ruth hit last year?" {"Oh bloody hell, I'm British, can't you ask me a cricket question?"}

...and as they drive through the check point a cunning 'native' guard tells the lorry driver "You speak good English!" The driver replies "DANKE!" and the games up!

(Courtesy of a similar scene from the movie 'The Great Escape')

 

[pbfoot]

Yeah it would shock the denizens but if you think the average joe was going to turn turtle your wrong these guys would be defending their property

 

[Soren]

Now back to the plan, and follow this closely please!

Preperations

First the German commando unit needs to find and establish a central hiding defensive position, and this will be done at the very first night or very early in the morning. Once this is done an escape route is planned and hideouts are made.

When all of the above has been done the targeted town and its surroundings need be studied, something which can be achieved quite easily by an undercover reconnaissance team. The same team should also preferably find out where the nearest native military base is located, thereby knowing what road it'll be utilizing to reach the town. Once that has been done three to four well concealed positions overlooking the city need be found established.

Now when I earlier said that the Commandos should establish themselves around the town I meant in three or four positions like above, and in 3 or 5 man groups, overlooking the entry roads and the town itself, reporting back any activity. So thats around 15-20 men.

Additionally a single well concealable position with lots of vegetation overlooking the road where the native military will be coming from need be found. After that has been accomplished the four S-18/1000 rifles, two MG34's two MG42's are brought over to this position by a 15 man group under the cover of darkness, and once there the weapons are hidden away well camoflaged and then left there.

Now after a thurough recon of the town, and esp. the natural surroundings, two suitable implacement positions for the artillery are established. The guns are then brought up to these positions the night up to the attack, either all in one place or split up in two. (I'd split them up) Each of the LG.40's will need three men for quick operation, so that's 12 men. The medium heavy mortars need two men each, so that's 20 men. So that's 32 men making up the artillery unit.

The small 50mm mortars aren't used for the initial bombardment, but by small 5 man groups moving around to provide a false indication of the main unit's awareness. (But this is during the attack itself which we'll get to later) Furthermore the 3 - 4 watch teams situated around the town overlooking it are equipped with two or three of these mini mortars each.

Once the artillery has been placed ready, or while it is being done, a 10 man team sets out to commandeer native transport vehicles and take the passengers hostage. The trucks or cars gained are then all driven to predetermined positions, made ready to be used incase of an emergency getaway and are then camoflaged to avoid detection.

The 10 man group then returns to be re-equipped to full combat gear, and with the rest they begin to ready themselves for the attack.

The 3-4 watch units are each equipped with one small radio and the artillery unit with two radios, one in contact with the watch posts and one in contact with the commanders unit. The Commanders unit is equipped with one small radio for exclusive contact with the artillery watch units and one big radio operated by two specialists used to monitor any native radio transmissions from the area.

The Attack

First a little overview.

The units in fixed positions are:

Artillery: 32 men
Watch: 15 - 20 men

So thats 47 - 52 men.

The remaining 23 - 28 men are split up like so:

Commanders unit: 5 men ( Staying at central hideout and keeping track of radio transmissions)
Distraction Ambush team: 18 - 23 men

At either 0100 or 0200 hours local time the attack starts with a bombardment of the town by the artillery unit, the 81, 105 120mm high explosive shells causing a lot of damage. 5 min into the attack two 5 man groups of the 18/23 man team move in closer to the town and start firing with 50mm mortars from different directions, shifting location after 3 to 5 shells fired, this way distracting and fooling any natives trying to observe the direction from which the main artillery unit is firing.

Meanwhile the remaining 8 to 13 men from the 18/23 man team are acting as a rear guard, patrolling on foot in a circle around the town, keeping in touch with the other units over small radio.

After the attack has lasted 10 - 15 min all four 105mm LG40 artillery pieces 120mm Mortars fire off four leaflet shells each over the town (The leaflets containing scary messages such as "What we just did to this town we can do to any other where when we choose, you're not safe anywhere", I'm sure that'll send chills down the spine of the Australian the rest of the Allied countries), after that there's an all ceasefire and the artillery unit emmidiately pack up and leave as quickly as possible.

The two 5 man distraction groups fall back and rejoin with the rest of their 18/23 man team which has been patrolling around the town. From there they head on over to the ambush position where the S-18/1000 and MG's are hidden and make ready.

At this point there is bound to be allot of native radio transmissions being sent to the closest military base, and this is closely monitored by the commanders unit which will be warning the ambush team when to be expecting contact.

Meanwhile the watch units pull back, one of them heading for the ambush position to join up, while the rest head for the central hideout a good distance away from it all. They will stay there with the commanders unit until further instructed. (Perhaps being sent over to some of the hidden trucks to make ready for a hasty escape)

_________________________________

This is all for now, I'll add in the ambush the rest tommorrow..

I hope you have all enjoyed my little hypothesis so far

 

[Soren]

By the way Soren, I like your idea of roving squads of commando's creating havoc in the rear area's. There will be thousands of checkpoints nationwide, with soldiers asking passing cars "How many home runs did Babe Ruth hit last year?" {"Oh bloody hell, I'm British, can't you ask me a cricket question?"}

But you're exactly right. And even with all these checkpoints it's going to be VERY hard to find the commandoes as after the attack many will be dressed in civilian clothes and be equipped with Aussie passports.

Another thing to remember is that since there's going to be needed allot of these checkpoints they can't all be equipped with very many men, and they are therefore VERY vulnerable to ambushes. The German commandos could just overwhelm a small post by show of arms or completely take one out with night attack, assasinating the post guards and leaving the post to be found abandoned. Imagine a freaking scare that would give ! Quite a few checkpoint guards will probably be pissing there pants from then on

 

[Glider]

Soren
Yes I do ,the question is, do you realise what you are letting your men in for?

The 20mm weighs 110 lb empty and each magazine 4lb say 12 mags per gun total 158 lb. Each man will need to carry around 50 lb pack for personal equipment total 125 lb each. Note that you admit to a two man crew so we are talking 8 men.
You are not going to walk far carrying 125lb

The LG.40 yes its small, but it weighs 320Lb each shell will weigh around 12lb say 50 rpg totals 920lb not forgetting the space required for the ammo. This isn't being carried any distance.

German 120mm mortar, this weighs in at 616lb and each shell 35lb. say 50 rpg and it totals a massive 2,360lb, you would be lucky to get it ashore.

 

[Soren]

Glider,

I know exactly what I would have my men do. But you're seriously underestimating what each man is capable of! Try asking me how long I was forced to walk with a 35 kg backpack..

The S-18/1000 was assigned to two men, these two men had to carry it around, that's how it was done. The weapon weighs 45 kg with an empty mag, and so around 47 kg with a full one. The weapon is meant to be taken apart when carried over long distances, one man carrying the barrel (Which is the heavy part) the other rest of the weapon. This is easily done Glider.

Regarding the LG40, well it's not like the poor guys have to carry it, incase you didn't notice its got wheels And its very easy to transport, a single man being able to tow it. So the LG40 only needs a single man to transport it.

As for the 120mm mortar, this is the toughest one to transport, but again it is meant to be taken apart for transport like every other mortar. With six man each it can be transported quite easily. The shells have to be brought in afterwards ofcourse, so it's a two time trip, or a three time trips if they want it even easier. Getting it ashore is ZERO problem.

Anyway if they want it really easy all they have to do is commandeer a single truck and load the 120's onto it.

 

[Glider]

Glider,

I know exactly what I would have my men do. But you're seriously underestimating what each man is capable of! Try asking me how long I was forced to walk with a 35 kg backpack..
The S-18/1000 was assigned to two men, these two men had to carry it around, that's how it was done. The weapon weighs 45 kg with an empty mag, and so around 47 kg with a full one. The weapon is meant to be taken apart when carried over long distances, one man carrying the barrel (Which is the heavy part) the other rest of the weapon.

I don't think that you read my posting. You are not asking your men to carry 35kg, your asking them to carry 56.5KG if you include ammo and personal pack.

This is easily done Glider.

of course, walk in the park

Regarding the LG40, well it's not like the poor guys have to carry it, incase you didn't notice its got wheels And its very easy to transport, a single man being able to tow it. So the LG40 only needs a single man to transport it.

And who is carrying the ammo which weighs 270 KG?

As for the 120mm mortar, this is the toughest one to transport, but again it is meant to be taken apart for transport like every other mortar. With six man each it can be transported quite easily. The shells have to be brought in afterwards ofcourse, so it's a two time trip, or a three time trips if they want it even easier. Getting it ashore is ZERO problem.
Anyway if they want it really easy all they have to do is commandeer a single truck and load the 120's onto it.

Check out the size of a 120 mortar. One of these mortars will need 24 man loads and that is without their own packs. It is totally impractical.

You haven't addressed the issue of how you are going to get all these men and tons of equipment to the coast, how are you going to get them ashore and how you are going to hide all this equipment and move it without being seen.

PS I have also served and carried packs, so I do know what is possible.

 

[Glider]

FJ52 ??? Full bore ammo ???

Incase you're talking about the FG-42 it wasn't too light at all. The FG-42 is a highly regarded weapon to this day, praised by gun experts as one of the finest smallarms ever built and by far the most advanced of WW2. Its characteristics can be summerized as such: Extremely precise, light, rugged, extremely comfortable and easy to wield, high rate of fire, easily handled in bursts, easily controlled on full auto when using the attached legs.

Anyway if you want an opinion from someone who actually fired the weapon try asking Les what he thought of it, if I recall correctly he said it was one of the greatest weapons from the last 70 years.

As to the full bore ammo, well I have no clue where you got that from, but you're probably trying to say that the FG-42 used the full power 7.92x57mm round instead of the 7.92x33 Kurz used by the StG.44.

The first version of the FG-42 did fire the full power round and was found to be very weak and unable to cater for this round. Only 2000 were built. The second version was built around the lighter round and only came into service towards the end of the war with around 5000 built.
So unless you are trying to do your raid in the latter part of 1944, yes you are trying to use the FG-42 with a full power round on a rifle that is to weak for it.

 

[Soren]

You are completely and utterly wrong about the FG-42 Glider!

The FG-42 I-II both used the full power 7.92x57mm round, and both versions were excellent weapons, version No.1 just proved too expensive to produce. And they were not found too weak at all, you're just making that up. Both versions handled the 7.92x57mm easily and both were VERY rugged and reliable weapons, and extremely precise.

FG-42 Version No.1

FG-42 Version No.2

Additional pictures:

 

[Soren]

I don't think that you read my posting. You are not asking your men to carry 35kg, your asking them to carry 56.5KG if you include ammo and personal pack. of course, walk in the park

The weapon weighs 45 kg Glider, thats 22.5 kg pr. person. The ammo doesn't weigh much, perhaps 10 kg for 5 mags. Again like I said, it was done easily and it will be done easily.

And who is carrying the ammo which weighs 270 KG?

Ever heard of two time trips ? Besides the Germans hard small carts for this.

Check out the size of a 120 mortar. One of these mortars will need 24 man loads and that is without their own packs. It is totally impractical.

You haven't addressed the issue of how you are going to get all these men and tons of equipment to the coast, how are you going to get them ashore and how you are going to hide all this equipment and move it without being seen.

PS I have also served and carried packs, so I do know what is possible.

You clearly don't know what is possible at all Glider.

The 120mm mortar isn't that big Glider, you're making it sound like its some sort of howitzer!

German 120mm Mortar:

Six men could easily transport this weapon.

 

[Freebird]

And who is carrying the ammo which weighs 270 KG?

Check out the size of a 120 mortar. One of these mortars will need 24 man loads and that is without their own packs. It is totally impractical.

You haven't addressed the issue of how you are going to get all these men and tons of equipment to the coast, how are you going to get them ashore and how you are going to hide all this equipment and move it without being seen.

PS I have also served and carried packs, so I do know what is possible.

Glider I think that the best option for the Germans would be to land the equipment by small boat, it could be cached in some isolated coastal area, and then if the commando's commandeer a few trucks to carry all the equipment.

Another option that we haven't considered is that in the Fall of 1941 there is a large pro-German "Bund" active in the USA, these German sympathisers {patriots? } could be used to provide some trucks to pick up the commando's at the coastal landing place. remember that the situation in the USA is totally different than the UK.

My grandmother was totally shocked when driving through the US upper mid-west to in the fall of 1940 {going from Vancouver, Canada to Toronto} to find the Octoberfest festival in full swing, complete with Swatika's flying!

German American Bund - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Soren]

Freebird,

Getting the equipment ashore wouldn't prove a problem at all, just load up in rubber boats or have a local fisher boat come get it.

Moving on to the artillery pieces,

The Std. German 81mm mortar was normally carried operated by a 3 man team, while the 120mm mortar was normally carried operated by a 4 man team. So having six men carry it to the established position outside the town would be no problem.

Here's a picture of a 3 man FallschirmJäger 81mm mortar team;

The LG.40 was normally just towed by a single man, while the other carried the ammunition, so again no problems.