DBII
Senior Master Sergeant
GREAT THREAD
DBII
DBII
WW2 Allied Leadership
- Thread starter michaelmaltby
- Start date
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renrich
Chief Master Sergeant
Interesting side note on WW2 leaders, Nimitz-CincPac, Eisenhower-SHAEF, both born in Texas. Must have been something in the water.
syscom3
Pacific Historian
Gen. Marshall was born in Pennsylvania.
Gen. Spaatz was born in Pennsylvania.
Gen. Arnold was born in Pennsylvania.
Must have been something in the water.
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syscom3
Pacific Historian
I have that book. A great addition to anyones library.
renrich
Chief Master Sergeant
Or maybe it was the whiskey in Penn. LOL
syscom3
Pacific Historian
Hello Parsifal
I disagree with some of your comments on Winter War.
First of all the main battle front was at Karelia Isthmus, where front was at the end of war some 75-125km from one of the biggest armament and munitions production areas of the world, namely Leningrad. And from Leningrad to frontline run 2-3 railway lines and numerous roads. There was some difficulties at the end of the war to get supplies through to the frontline but that was because Soviets had crammed into the isthmus 730.000-760.000men, 114.000 horses, 40.000 lorries, 5.000 tractors 5329 guns, 2620 tanks and 490 armoured cars and the frontline was only 125km long and the isthmus was some 66km wide at its narrowest point near Leningrad.
Those Corpses attacking between Lake Ladoga and Lake Onega on the other hand could only use the rather limited the road network and the roads run through dense forests. And Finnish attacks through those forests cut off 2 Soviet divs and one Tank Brigade.
More Northern Soviet attacks were usually divisional attacks along a road or two and with exceptions of the 2 most northern attacks these were stopped 30-70km from the border and cut to small encirclements along the roads by Finnish forces attacking from surrendering forests. So the question wasn't the distance from supply bases but the fact that Finns cut off the supply roads. And it wasn't easy for Finns either, because those troops guarding those road blocks must have been supplied through the forests. The level of winter equipment in Soviet divs varied, for ex the 44 Div from Ukraine which was encircled along Raate Road was badly clad but 54 Div, encircled along Kuhmo road was very well equipped for winter warfare.
I cannot recall why the Soviet div (122) attacking through Salla began fast withdrawal after hard fight around Pelkosenniemi, some 150km from the border. It took defensive positions W of Salla, some 70 km from the border. They might have encountered some supply problems but maybe only info on what was happening to other divisions further south compelled they to withdraw to less exposed position. 52 Div which attacked through Petsamo from Barents Sea coast might have suffered from supply problems but those were partly caused by actions of Finnish ski patrols.
And I doubted that cold was the major killer during the Winter War, frosbites accounted some 4,5% of Soviet casualties and clear majority of troops and most casualties happened in Karelia Isthmus where there was no encirclements and fighting was normal with clear frontline and Leningrad with its hospitals was near.
The success of Finns depended on that Finns were very highly motivated and skillfull forest fighters and individual soldiers, who had developed excellent tactical doctrine well suited for our environment. But because Soviet Union had so overwhelming numerical superiority it could loose some divisions in Northern Sectors and strategically those attacks worked, they surprised Finns because Finns had not foreseen the use of so powerful forces there and Finns had to move some of their reserves there and so they were away from the main operational area, the Karelia Isthmus, at the end of the war Finns had there only some 100.000 men and 333 guns, so odds were overwhelming because Finnish troops were tired and suffered from arty and mortar ammo shortages. Also the encircled Soviet troops fought on stubbornly and so many Finns were tied to guard and to smash those encirclements. Finns had not foreseen the stubborn defence of encirclements and had not enough firepower to pulverize them and had to use storm troop tactics to destroy them bit by bit.
Juha
I disagree with some of your comments on Winter War.
First of all the main battle front was at Karelia Isthmus, where front was at the end of war some 75-125km from one of the biggest armament and munitions production areas of the world, namely Leningrad. And from Leningrad to frontline run 2-3 railway lines and numerous roads. There was some difficulties at the end of the war to get supplies through to the frontline but that was because Soviets had crammed into the isthmus 730.000-760.000men, 114.000 horses, 40.000 lorries, 5.000 tractors 5329 guns, 2620 tanks and 490 armoured cars and the frontline was only 125km long and the isthmus was some 66km wide at its narrowest point near Leningrad.
Those Corpses attacking between Lake Ladoga and Lake Onega on the other hand could only use the rather limited the road network and the roads run through dense forests. And Finnish attacks through those forests cut off 2 Soviet divs and one Tank Brigade.
More Northern Soviet attacks were usually divisional attacks along a road or two and with exceptions of the 2 most northern attacks these were stopped 30-70km from the border and cut to small encirclements along the roads by Finnish forces attacking from surrendering forests. So the question wasn't the distance from supply bases but the fact that Finns cut off the supply roads. And it wasn't easy for Finns either, because those troops guarding those road blocks must have been supplied through the forests. The level of winter equipment in Soviet divs varied, for ex the 44 Div from Ukraine which was encircled along Raate Road was badly clad but 54 Div, encircled along Kuhmo road was very well equipped for winter warfare.
I cannot recall why the Soviet div (122) attacking through Salla began fast withdrawal after hard fight around Pelkosenniemi, some 150km from the border. It took defensive positions W of Salla, some 70 km from the border. They might have encountered some supply problems but maybe only info on what was happening to other divisions further south compelled they to withdraw to less exposed position. 52 Div which attacked through Petsamo from Barents Sea coast might have suffered from supply problems but those were partly caused by actions of Finnish ski patrols.
And I doubted that cold was the major killer during the Winter War, frosbites accounted some 4,5% of Soviet casualties and clear majority of troops and most casualties happened in Karelia Isthmus where there was no encirclements and fighting was normal with clear frontline and Leningrad with its hospitals was near.
The success of Finns depended on that Finns were very highly motivated and skillfull forest fighters and individual soldiers, who had developed excellent tactical doctrine well suited for our environment. But because Soviet Union had so overwhelming numerical superiority it could loose some divisions in Northern Sectors and strategically those attacks worked, they surprised Finns because Finns had not foreseen the use of so powerful forces there and Finns had to move some of their reserves there and so they were away from the main operational area, the Karelia Isthmus, at the end of the war Finns had there only some 100.000 men and 333 guns, so odds were overwhelming because Finnish troops were tired and suffered from arty and mortar ammo shortages. Also the encircled Soviet troops fought on stubbornly and so many Finns were tied to guard and to smash those encirclements. Finns had not foreseen the stubborn defence of encirclements and had not enough firepower to pulverize them and had to use storm troop tactics to destroy them bit by bit.
Juha
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parsifal
Colonel
Thanks Juha, I accept your corrections, and very interesting by the way
vikingBerserker
Lieutenant General
I agree, great posts Juha!
It took me a couple of goes at this sentence to realise it was a language thing, I was thinking 'CORPSES????' it raised a very odd image in my mind, and an idea for a horror/war crossover movie
Then I realised my mistake.great post though Juha, very informative.
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Thanks guys
Hello Waynos, I also saw the two meanings but because Soviets first use one army there and later deployed an other as reinforcement there I decided to use the term.
Being an off-topic subject I tried to be as brief as possible so only general lines. One thing I want to emphasize is that the Soviets were not hopelessly tied on roads. They also often tried to outflank Finns by marching through the forests and suddenly appeared behind Finnish lines. But usually Finns won those sudden bloody engagements. And there were cases when Finns, remembering to do time to time unexpected things, attacked along a road while Soviets were trying to outflank them through forests. So Soviets knew how to fight in forests but were still not the level of Finns on flexibility and individual combat skills.
OK, if we want to continue the Winter War subject, it will be better to open a new thread on the subject.
Juha
Hello Waynos, I also saw the two meanings but because Soviets first use one army there and later deployed an other as reinforcement there I decided to use the term.
Being an off-topic subject I tried to be as brief as possible so only general lines. One thing I want to emphasize is that the Soviets were not hopelessly tied on roads. They also often tried to outflank Finns by marching through the forests and suddenly appeared behind Finnish lines. But usually Finns won those sudden bloody engagements. And there were cases when Finns, remembering to do time to time unexpected things, attacked along a road while Soviets were trying to outflank them through forests. So Soviets knew how to fight in forests but were still not the level of Finns on flexibility and individual combat skills.
OK, if we want to continue the Winter War subject, it will be better to open a new thread on the subject.
Juha
- Thread starter
- #112
michaelmaltby
Colonel
"...stopped 30-70km from the border and cut to small encirclements along the roads by Finnish forces attacking from surrendering forests .." Called "log piles" by the Finns, I believe.
MM
MM
Hello Michael
Absolutely correct, to be exact we called them motti, which is 1m x 1m x 1m ie a cubic metre pile of logs.
I corrected a mistake in my message #107, between Lake Ladoga and Lake Onega there were no rail connection between Soviet Union and Finland in 1939, the railroad between Suvilahti and the border was built by Soviets sometimes in 1940-41 and Uuksu-Mäkriä railroad was built by Finns in 1942-43.
Juha
Absolutely correct, to be exact we called them motti, which is 1m x 1m x 1m ie a cubic metre pile of logs.
I corrected a mistake in my message #107, between Lake Ladoga and Lake Onega there were no rail connection between Soviet Union and Finland in 1939, the railroad between Suvilahti and the border was built by Soviets sometimes in 1940-41 and Uuksu-Mäkriä railroad was built by Finns in 1942-43.
Juha
parsifal
Colonel
A question we wil never know, but makes me wonder....how would Zhukov and his Siberians have faired in the Finnish war....especially if they were issued proper winter clothing.
I still think the Finns would have been superior, but perhaps there might have been a somewhat more imaginative approach to the problem by the Siberians....
I still think the Finns would have been superior, but perhaps there might have been a somewhat more imaginative approach to the problem by the Siberians....
Hello Parcifal
Of course we'll never know but.
Chuikov of Stalingrad fame became the commander of 9.A on 22.12.39 and after that happened the catastrophes of 44. Div and 54. MountainDiv which belonged to his army. And 54. was a division whose peacetime base was in Soviet Karelia, so it was used to the environment and was well equipped for the winter. It lost some 50% of its manpower but it fought very stubbornly and some of the encirclements hold out until the peace came. And as I wrote, Soviets achieved surprises at the beginning of the war. For ex at Juntusranta, which was defended by a platoon, the attacking force, which had built a winter road to border totally unnoticed by Finns, consisted most of 163. Div. Its third regiment attacked some 60 km more south along the Raate road, where Finns had an independent battalion. Finns had expected a regimental attack there but the attack to Juntusranta was a full shock. When the platoon commander informed that he was under attack by at least of a battalion, he was told to calm down and not to send alarmist reports.
So the attack plan was not unimaginative and the Soviet topographical intelligence was good, at least once in the Karelian Isthmus Soviet turned a flank of a delaying position by using paths unknown to Finnish Army.
BTW I found out that Soviets completed the railroad between Suvilahti and the border on 13.3.40, which was the date of ceasefire. Suvilahti was connected to Finnish railnetwork.
Juha
Of course we'll never know but.
Chuikov of Stalingrad fame became the commander of 9.A on 22.12.39 and after that happened the catastrophes of 44. Div and 54. MountainDiv which belonged to his army. And 54. was a division whose peacetime base was in Soviet Karelia, so it was used to the environment and was well equipped for the winter. It lost some 50% of its manpower but it fought very stubbornly and some of the encirclements hold out until the peace came. And as I wrote, Soviets achieved surprises at the beginning of the war. For ex at Juntusranta, which was defended by a platoon, the attacking force, which had built a winter road to border totally unnoticed by Finns, consisted most of 163. Div. Its third regiment attacked some 60 km more south along the Raate road, where Finns had an independent battalion. Finns had expected a regimental attack there but the attack to Juntusranta was a full shock. When the platoon commander informed that he was under attack by at least of a battalion, he was told to calm down and not to send alarmist reports.
So the attack plan was not unimaginative and the Soviet topographical intelligence was good, at least once in the Karelian Isthmus Soviet turned a flank of a delaying position by using paths unknown to Finnish Army.
BTW I found out that Soviets completed the railroad between Suvilahti and the border on 13.3.40, which was the date of ceasefire. Suvilahti was connected to Finnish railnetwork.
Juha
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- Thread starter
- #116
michaelmaltby
Colonel
Great insights, Juha. I have the greatest admiration for the Finns. Your country seems to always dodge the victim-mentality-bullet by making lemonade when you get handed lemons. 
MM
MM
Soundbreaker Welch?
Tech Sergeant
I don't know how Stalin felt after being pounded so much by the Finns, but I bet he wasn't happy.
vikingBerserker
Lieutenant General
Oh I'm sure a few heads rolled, literaly.
I watched a special on the Winter War about a month ago and it mentioned the Finns kept targeting the mobile kitchens used to feed the soviet troops. That is just brilliant.
I watched a special on the Winter War about a month ago and it mentioned the Finns kept targeting the mobile kitchens used to feed the soviet troops. That is just brilliant.
- Thread starter
- #119
michaelmaltby
Colonel
"That is just brilliant..."
You're right Viking ... the Finns were absolutely in their element.
Juha - why don't you start a thread on Finland and the wars - not just the Winter War but The Continuance War as well..?
There is much to learn ... during Continuance, fighting beside the Germans, (I have been told), several Jewish Finns were awarded the Iron Cross by German senior command in theatre ... can you confirm or deny that urban legend, Juha .. I'm curious....
During Winter War the Finns - great pulp and paper people - spread cellophane on open water to make it look frozen ... again Juha, is that just a myth ...
And when you'd come back from the bloody fight with the Russians - home was a bunker blasted into the frozen earth - lined in fresh spruce boughs and covered in layers of tree trunks .... warm, dry, secure, concealed. Winter is actually a very good time to fight - if you know the terrain.
By all means .. attack the soup wagons
MM
You're right Viking ... the Finns were absolutely in their element.
Juha - why don't you start a thread on Finland and the wars - not just the Winter War but The Continuance War as well..?
There is much to learn ... during Continuance, fighting beside the Germans, (I have been told), several Jewish Finns were awarded the Iron Cross by German senior command in theatre ... can you confirm or deny that urban legend, Juha ..
I'm curious....During Winter War the Finns - great pulp and paper people - spread cellophane on open water to make it look frozen ... again Juha, is that just a myth ...
And when you'd come back from the bloody fight with the Russians - home was a bunker blasted into the frozen earth - lined in fresh spruce boughs and covered in layers of tree trunks .... warm, dry, secure, concealed.
Winter is actually a very good time to fight - if you know the terrain.By all means .. attack the soup wagons
MM
Hello Michael
Quote:" Juha - why don't you start a thread on Finland and the wars - not just the Winter War but The Continuance War as well..?"
The reason is lack of time.
Quote:" during Continuance, fighting beside the Germans, (I have been told), several Jewish Finns were awarded the Iron Cross by German senior command in theatre ... can you confirm or deny that urban legend, Juha"
At least one junior Jewish Finnish army officer got a Iron Cross, it's long time ago when I read/heard on the story, but IIRC he got the medal for rescuing some Waffen-SS soldiers (so the combat happened in Northern Finland where 6th SS Div operated) but he declined to take the IC.
Quote:" During Winter War the Finns - great pulp and paper people - spread cellophane on open water to make it look frozen ... again Juha, is that just a myth ..."
I cannot recall, but that doesn't prove anything, I have forgot much of what I have read on Winter and Continuation Wars. But both sides used many trick, so possible.
Qute:" And when you'd come back from the bloody fight with the Russians - home was a bunker blasted into the frozen earth - lined in fresh spruce boughs and covered in layers of tree trunks .... warm, dry, secure, concealed. Winter is actually a very good time to fight - if you know the terrain."
Actually IIRC Finns usually used pickaxes, iron bars and shovels, and it was hard work. IIRC Finns usually lived in "korsus" ie earth and log shelters in Karelian Isthmus and in tents in North where there was more movements. At the beginning Finns did not have enough canvas tents, in fact there was general lack of anything from boots and uniforms to shells and fuzes, but our pulp industry then produced tents made on paper/cardboard, not very durable solution but better than nothing.
In fact Soviets were much eager diggers, Finns said that if one gave 15minutes for consolidate their gains to Soviets they had in that time dig good positions and were already shovelling earth over two tiers log overhead protection.
Juha
Quote:" Juha - why don't you start a thread on Finland and the wars - not just the Winter War but The Continuance War as well..?"
The reason is lack of time.
Quote:" during Continuance, fighting beside the Germans, (I have been told), several Jewish Finns were awarded the Iron Cross by German senior command in theatre ... can you confirm or deny that urban legend, Juha"
At least one junior Jewish Finnish army officer got a Iron Cross, it's long time ago when I read/heard on the story, but IIRC he got the medal for rescuing some Waffen-SS soldiers (so the combat happened in Northern Finland where 6th SS Div operated) but he declined to take the IC.
Quote:" During Winter War the Finns - great pulp and paper people - spread cellophane on open water to make it look frozen ... again Juha, is that just a myth ..."
I cannot recall, but that doesn't prove anything, I have forgot much of what I have read on Winter and Continuation Wars. But both sides used many trick, so possible.
Qute:" And when you'd come back from the bloody fight with the Russians - home was a bunker blasted into the frozen earth - lined in fresh spruce boughs and covered in layers of tree trunks .... warm, dry, secure, concealed. Winter is actually a very good time to fight - if you know the terrain."
Actually IIRC Finns usually used pickaxes, iron bars and shovels, and it was hard work. IIRC Finns usually lived in "korsus" ie earth and log shelters in Karelian Isthmus and in tents in North where there was more movements. At the beginning Finns did not have enough canvas tents, in fact there was general lack of anything from boots and uniforms to shells and fuzes, but our pulp industry then produced tents made on paper/cardboard, not very durable solution but better than nothing.
In fact Soviets were much eager diggers, Finns said that if one gave 15minutes for consolidate their gains to Soviets they had in that time dig good positions and were already shovelling earth over two tiers log overhead protection.
Juha
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