WW2 Aviation Mythbusters

[pbfoot]

Michael's Tiger I was either destroyed by aircraft or shot through the SIDE by an AT gun at fairly close range. His tank trundled of with only 7 others, deep into enemy territory with exposed flanks and inadquete numbers, he was taking over from a commander he considered to inexperienced. The odds were against him. There was no particular courage or ingenuinity required to opportunistically ambush the exposed tigers, which were taking an audacious risk some tacticians have condemned as foolhardy due to inadquet reconaisance.

Here yeah go my young friend , Pt 1 of new series . new in the sense its less then 2yrs old on the end of Wittman . I'll ruin the ending for you he was taken out by a shot from a tank of the Royal Sherbrookes . Its a CSI type show and well done for a guy like me that knows nothing about armour guns ships stc

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uCKhIkAgec

 

[parsifal]

Another myth, from the same local source....it ran something like "the germans won the battle of britain.....they achieved all that they had set out to do, ran out of targets and moved onto bigger and better battles".....

the guy was delusional

 

[parsifal]

Or this one it went something like this...."later model Bf 109s had a range in excess of 1400 km....700 out one way and 700 back". If i tried hard enough Im sure i could find this gem. Someone pointed out that would allow escorted raids to Scotland (I think that was the country mentioned). He had no problem with that.

I know, I know, there is some truth to it (yeah right).....

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Or this one it went something like this...."later model Bf 109s had a range in excess of 1400 km....700 out one way and 700 back". If i tried hard enough Im sure i could find this gem. Someone pointed out that would allow escorted raids to Scotland (I think that was the country mentioned). He had no problem with that.

I know, I know, there is some truth to it (yeah right).....

Could probably be done on a super lean mixture setting and flying no faster than 150 mph

 

[vinnye]

I think that the RAF would have loved the 109's flying at 150mph!

 

[bobbysocks]

maybe if they caught the jet stream or one hell of a tail wind!

watched that michael wittman episode....they make a pretty strong argument for the tank kill. i dont know if a tiger ever was taken out by a frontal shot....but that is irrelevant.

 

[vinnye]

From that statement it seems you think war is some kind of game where you fight "fair". Tank warfare consist of basically ambush tactics whenever possible, if you're presented with a side shot, you take it. It takes courage just to stay on a battlefield and take your chances.
The western allies at that time had no tank that could go toe to toe with a Tiger I, Michael Wittman knew that, but i'm not going to be juvenile and suggest that Wittman was less courageous for taking advantage of that superority.

There is no doubt in my mind that Wittman was brave and tactically astute.
He did have some comfort in the knowkedge - as stated above, that the Western Allies did not have a tank (or gun) that could take a Tiger on from the front.
Therefore, it was prudent for any allied tank crew (or German in many case) to use terrain and cover to their advantage!
The Sherbrookes used their cover to the best effect - to take on the Tiger from the side / rear, where they knew they could at least hope to damage the beast!
I believe other Tigers were engaged and destroyed by a Firefly - in cover in a wood from the other side of the formation of Tigers.
Wittman was known for seizing opportunities -outside Villers was a classic example. He saw a column of British armour moving along a single track road - unable to manouevre because of the terrain, and shot he lead and tail vehicles, then proceeded to shoot up the rest of the column! Not all of these vehicles were tanks - many were not armoured - if my memory serves!
That was confidence and ability - and a bit of luck!
He was also a little lucky when he drove through Villers - as he passed a British take parked off the main road (which he did not see) - but the gunner was out of the tank relieving himself. This tank tried to folow Wittman to take him from the back - but he had already gone down the road and turned round! The result of this is predictable!

 

[Vincenzo]

TRUE

Tail numbers S/N 44-83028, c/n 1007 S/N 44-83029, c/n 1008 were deployed to the 1st Fighter Group at Lesina Airfield, Italy, Joe Baugher gives references to this fact in his web site. Those 2 aircraft survived their deployment, one crashed stateside, one was later converted into a drone.

As far as what type of sorties flown? Nothing too dangerous considering that no Luftwaffe jets were anywhere close to Lesina.

it is well knewn that 2 yp-80 go in 1st FG, is well knewn that they fly over italy, but that fly combat mission give me where is the reference

 

[Denniss]

Could probably be done on a super lean mixture setting and flying no faster than 150 mph

Entirely possible with 200 to 210 mph.

 

[Juha]

Hello
Finnish experiences with 109G was that the most economic speed was not useable because of the flooding of exhaust gases into cockpit at that speed.

Juha

 

[parsifal]

Could probably be done on a super lean mixture setting and flying no faster than 150 mph

I need to find the quote. What you are descibing is really a ferry range configuration. That is entirely plausible. But that wasnt the context of the conversation (at last thats my memory of it). I think you were there FB.....it was one of those memorable sessions where everything just went pear shaped.....

I am bringing these up humourously. Lord knows we need a bit of that around here at the moment. it all seemed so important at the time.....

 

[michaelmaltby]

"... I am bringing these up humorously. Lord knows we need a bit of that around here at the moment. it all seemed so important at the time....."

Caution, my friend, the "humor" envelope awaits ....

MM

 

[vikingBerserker]

Perhaps if you tied one to 2 European Swallows.......

I'll show myself out.

 

[pbfoot]

And in all seriousness my Toyota Echo has a greater range then either the 109 or Spit and I ain't joking

 

[michaelmaltby]

".... a greater range then either the 109 or Spit ..."

But not a Zero ....

MM

 

[iron man]

".... The account of the German jet program begins with a young Doctoral student freshly minted from the University of Göttingen in 1935."

The Nazis were securely in charge of the levers of power by then ...... so did Nazi science get the jet engine "right" and Frank Whittle get it "wrong" ? ... is that your personal conviction, Iron man.

Curious, not judgmental

MM

I prefer to use the phrase "German science"...particularly in the case of a discussion such as this. Herr Busemann was world renowned within the international aerodynamic science "community", long before the "machtergreifung" handed the reins of the Reichstag to Hitler and the looney tunes.

The paper I've cited is not my work Michael; the statements, research and conclusions reached, are those of a man who has dug long (and deep) for an appraisal of the effects (as with respect to "Paperclip") of "German science" on the postwar aviation developments in the western aerospace industry.

As to me? I'm not talking about propulsion systems here (although I will grant that there is a significant amount of aerodynamic engineering contained within the discipline; especially as with regard to jet engines)...I'm talking about pure aerodynamic research, and the subsequent effect on Western postwar airframe designs.

If pushed for a comment on the "Axial/Centrifugal" debate, I'll offer this up. By the early 1950's, centrifugal engines were increasingly banished from front line aircraft coming off of the production lines. While they have their merits, their cumbersome profiles and significant disadvantages with respect to power/weight ratios made this shift a "when"...not an "if". Axials are a whole different engineering ballgame. They are many times advanced beyond the (relatively speaking) simplistic Whittle engines.

Fruition of axials was far beyond the metallurgical capabilities of late WWII-era Germany. The fact remains that the research behind the BMW 003 reached fruition postwar in the SNECMA Atar.
This is the most directly "derivative" example, but "Paperclip" scooped up every German scientist they could get their hands on and the postwar records are only now being declassified in many cases. As the calendar pushes forward, we can expect further revelations, with respect to the effects that these "war prizes" had upon the postwar aerospace industry within the UK.

This may well rewrite that which is currently perceived as "common knowledge" when it comes to this matter.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

it is well knewn that 2 yp-80 go in 1st FG, is well knewn that they fly over italy, but that fly combat mission give me where is the reference

I used the Joe Baugher site and he gave references. I have found him to be very fair and accurate

http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_fighters/p80_3.html

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Entirely possible with 200 to 210 mph.

That means no advancing the throttle, no evasive maneuvers, straight and level. Perfect for a ferry flight, not practical in combat

 

[pbfoot]

The paper I've cited is not my work Michael; the statements, research and conclusions reached, are those of a man who has dug long (and deep) for an appraisal of the effects (as with respect to "Paperclip") of "German science" on the postwar aviation developments in the western aerospace industry.

.

But why would I even pay attention to a paper in which there is a blatant error on the 1st page , I know squat about engines and area rule but as a person with limited knowlwedge I would hope that the man doing this would be thorogh , it make every else after a non factor to me . I'm sure this guy Busemann was a smart cookie but thats all I can say

 

[FLYBOYJ]

If pushed for a comment on the "Axial/Centrifugal" debate, I'll offer this up. By the early 1950's, centrifugal engines were increasingly banished from front line aircraft coming off of the production lines. While they have their merits, their cumbersome profiles and significant disadvantages with respect to power/weight ratios made this shift a "when"...not an "if". Axials are a whole different engineering ballgame. They are many times advanced beyond the (relatively speaking) simplistic Whittle engines.

What's your definition of a "front line aircraft?" Fighter? Bomber? Can you consider a helicopter a "front line aircraft" because by the end of the decade (1950s) these fat little balls of impellers found their way into numerous helicopters and in a composite configuration, into aircraft, and they were just as, if not more advanced than their larger cousins. In their cumbersome profile, they actually offer a superior power to weight ration when applied to a different application.