Glider
Captain
But Lichtenstein had no strategic, or economic value to him, South Africa has both.
WW2 Myths
- Thread starter Joe2
- Start date
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South African forces fought alongisde Kiwi, Aussie, and Indian troops in the desert war and up through Italy.
The original two troops of the LRDG were Kiwis and South Africans, it was later they were joined by a Guards Troop.
Provided us Kiwis with someone else to beat at Rugby besides the Poms and Aussies.
A traditon that continues to today.
The original two troops of the LRDG were Kiwis and South Africans, it was later they were joined by a Guards Troop.
Provided us Kiwis with someone else to beat at Rugby besides the Poms and Aussies.
A traditon that continues to today.
No Hop there is not truth to that at all...the VVS neither destroy the Luftwaffe all by itself nor made any significant contribution for that to occur...
It´d appear you are clueless about the aerial warfare in the east and if you take a few seconds of your valuable time to re-read your posting, you might be surprised to discover that author you quoted agrees with me when i affirm the soviets lied big time when they claimed to "have destroyed" the Luftwaffe as early as mid 1943 "all by themselves".
No Hop. You are wrong -very-.
Ever heard of the aerial battles taking place over the Kuban until late 1943? Have you heard of the Luftwaffe strength in the sector...it might help you to know the VVS became uncapable of gaining air superiority in the sector...
But this is quite typical from you. When it comes to posting greatly manipulated numbers and statistics no one can beat you Hop.
Pretty much the same you do when you post your statistics of the BoB to make a case regarding the "horrific" losses of the Luftwaffe, all manipulated and distorted.
I do not blame you for having such a critical conflict of interest when posting here Hop. You can continue having fun playing and mingling your sources, stats and numbers.
Emac44
Staff Sergeant
I read some of Henks comments about South Africa but at the time the South African Government both during WW1 and later WW2 were pro British in most respects, hence that country of South Africa which was still by all accounts a Commonwealth Country by their Parliament was obligated to send troops to fight not only in WW1 but also WW2. Henk Hitler respected no treaties whatsoever and if he had one with South Africa at the time he would not have taken any notice of it regardless of past British Atroscities that occurred during th Boer War. He would have seen that as a reason to invade South Africa to use the excuse like he did previously with European Nations like Holland and Norway as an excuse to free Germanic Peoples from the terror of Colonial England etc. That would have been his excuse. His objectives would have been to secure the Kimberly Mining areas industrial diamonds etc or the abundancy of gold fields in your country plus arriable land for agriculture usage and a ready supply of Kaffirs to work the lot. In other words slave population of black africans.Do not make the assumption that he wouldn't do those things Hitler had already done similar things in Europe. So your claim is made by emotive reasons not on whether Herr Hitler was a nice Austrian Guy who would father Germanic attitudes in a western world
Udet tone it down. His post did not warrant such hard words. You allways come back with insults and then you wonder why people have such harsh reactions to you.
You can get your point across without insulting and baiting people allright!
Tone it down and I mean it!!
Adler i am not insulting Hop and i dont always come back with insults; it is just a fact he posts numbers and stats that boost his conflict of interest.
I can and will tone it down but i am not insulting nobody and it is in fact the very first time i address Mr Hop like this.
I will understand, as i said, his huge conflict interest when he discusses everything that is RAF related, he is 50% blind but that is ok; but when he affirms "there is some truth to that..." referring to the eastern front case he is 100% lost.
Anyone taking a a closer looks to the sources and the stats he always posts regarding the comparison of RAF-Luftwaffe losses during the Battle of Britain can detect the agenda of Mr. Hop.
I can and will tone it down but i am not insulting nobody and it is in fact the very first time i address Mr Hop like this.
I will understand, as i said, his huge conflict interest when he discusses everything that is RAF related, he is 50% blind but that is ok; but when he affirms "there is some truth to that..." referring to the eastern front case he is 100% lost.
Anyone taking a a closer looks to the sources and the stats he always posts regarding the comparison of RAF-Luftwaffe losses during the Battle of Britain can detect the agenda of Mr. Hop.
I will talke further with you in a PM.
I find Henks opinions strange...
Sometime Henk in life you have to pick the lesser of 2 evils.
I'm just currious... how many relatives of South African people were actually living under the heels of Nazi occupation in Holland ?
How many relatives didn't starve to death because of the food drops at the end of the war ?
How may Relatives were fighting as free fighting people out of Britain during the war... or helped organise resistance by British secret service ?
Think of it as South Africans fighting to free them... not so much sideing with the British....
Who by the way gave Saf Efrika it's indepenance and didn't run an apartheid system for years on end....
When in glass houses don't throw stones..
Simon
Sometime Henk in life you have to pick the lesser of 2 evils.
I'm just currious... how many relatives of South African people were actually living under the heels of Nazi occupation in Holland ?
How many relatives didn't starve to death because of the food drops at the end of the war ?
How may Relatives were fighting as free fighting people out of Britain during the war... or helped organise resistance by British secret service ?
Think of it as South Africans fighting to free them... not so much sideing with the British....
Who by the way gave Saf Efrika it's indepenance and didn't run an apartheid system for years on end....
When in glass houses don't throw stones..
Simon
He has got a point Henk.
Henk
Master Sergeant
Ok, first off the Caffers like you reffer to them were working like slaves under the British government when the were in controle here and egverything you said Emac44 already were happening here and so thus it would thus have been normal day of live if Hitler took over like you described it.
Ok second off the Apartheid thing. I think the rest of the world have the whole thing backwords. Why? Well take it this way, who started the whole Apartheid bullsh*t? The British that were in controle planted the seed and let the Nasional Party grow it. The British did not give us independance, we demanded it from them. They later told us it was wrong to have a systum like apratheid. Well I learned the SA History and I did my own reseach on the topic and it all points back to the British Government.
If you guys li8ved here in SA you would know what I mean. It is f*cked up in the sence that we have so many caltures here that it make it almoust impossibale to live together. The Apartheid systum was in some way right, but mostly wrong. They said give the Black people their own groudn to make it something, but they over populated the ground, they were mostly corrupt and demanded the Apartheid government spoon feed them. The blacks lived better during apartheid as how they live now.
No one from the out side knows what realy went on during the Apartheid years, they only believed what the TV showed them or what their governments told them. Our Economy were way better and everything went smooth, what has happend now?
Apartheid has turned around now in a so called "rainbow nation". Blacks get the jobs they can not do and steal from the poor, the blacks sit on their asses and do nothing and demand the tax payers must carry them. They get free electricaty, free water, no taxes, free home and demand more. They are laxy no good. The country that is ruled by black people that I can say is the best is Botswana. The rest are corrupt, no good, lazy oxygen thiefs.
If you guys take away your nationalty, your money and you live like a SA person must day to day you will see how it is, feel the pain and get pissed off over the bullsh*t that goes on here. 9 month old babys get raped, Farmers get killed just because they are not balck, the black chear on the streats "kill the farmer kill the boer" and they say everyone lives happy here together. The ANC are terrorest, nothing else. My mom works in the Justice department, the state, I see ho incompetent the blacks are that work with them. A person from anoether country said tath he can see how the Afrikaans people in SA are being surpressed by the black people.
I did nothing to any of these blacks and my family has just been good for them on the farms and now I must suffer just because the Apartheid government did all of those sh*t. I have worked with these people they are lazy and no good do not want to WORK type of people, but you get great ones that want to make something of them selfs.
Sorry everyone to change the topic here, but I think the rest of the world do not see the big picture here, come and lice here I will invite you and I will show you how it is to be a non black person in SA.
Emac44
Staff Sergeant
Ok Henk how do you turn the statement I made about Hitler not observing Treaties with countries he had and he wouldn't observe one with South Africa into an aparthied statement. I mentioned a ready workforce of Kaffirs would be the slaves of a Germanic state of South Africa. And you turned around and immediatley blamed the British for the whole lot. One let me remind you off one thing Henk do not assume that you know what I think or whether I trust the media. 1 is I do not trust the media and 2 My knowledge of Commonwealth History and that does include South Africa is very extensive. I might not live in South Africa but well know similar occurences with former British Colonies and mandate territories have occured to the governmental processes in other countries. For example Henk the problems occuring in Zimbawae with Morgaby and the PNG Government in Port Moresby also Fiji and the Solomon Islands. So do not prattle of to me that we outside South Africa do not understand your problems. Are you also saying that it was strictly the English who were bigotted to the Kaffirs. How naive do you think I am Henk. Even by your own statements you classify some blacks as ok others not and in that it is classifying them by race my Boer friend. And if you really want to go down the historical traill about race. Mine is Scots Celtic from the Highlands of Scotland. Yes Henk I am a Jacobite a decendant of the Clans which fought the English from 10th Century to the 18th Century in Scotland. The Scots Henk like the Irish and the Welsh lost their language their homes their politics their families and their identity to the English over a 1000 years my friend so do not prattle about what the Boers had lost and regained after WW2 with your own governments coming to power. Did the English Government force the Afrikaan Governments to continue Apathied Governmental control of segegation of the Kaffirs in your society. I suppose its easy to blame others for your own mistakes without looking inside towards your own causes of mistrust and hatred for not only the English but to the Kaffirs as well. I have all good reasons to hate the English for my own Celtic Past but I do not and I am well aware that the ANC in South Africa wasn't universally supported by other Blacks in South Africa for example Inkarta Zulus had no love for the ANC or Nelson Mandala and his wife Winnie. Who by all accounts was a corrupt bitch inside the ANC organisation. And getting back to the history of Scotland for a minute. Do you think the Scots during those years of oppression by the English were not their own worse enemies with the mistrust and self promoting of various factions by Clan Chiefs like the Baille Clan MacDonalds and the Stewarts in Scotland along with the Bruces who contrieved to gain control over the various Clans and lands of the Scots and inter Clan reviallry. Henk how naive do you think I am to believe the Boers were lilly white and kind to the Kaffirs in all respects. As i am an Australian I have to acknowledge my Colonial Part played by my fellow countrymen and women upon the Australian Aborigine. So don't you dare come to me with your Boer Bullshit and prattle about the evil of the English when in reality Boers we no better the English in dealing with the the Kaffirs in your country. Dont come to me and say the Apartheid Government in South Africa only followed the example of the British prior to WW2 and WW1. Thats saying to me its not my fault but some one elses and not taking responsibilty for ones own actions. Boers like any one else have to be responsible for their own actions Henk. It seems Henk you are missing the message that those Kaffirs on the streets of South Africa are saying. Death to the Boers. Even though they are saying it in ignorance or blinded stupidity they do indeed hold the Boers responsible for some evils dealt upon them by your own people Henk, by the way Henk we in Australia have same problems with our own Aborigines but the message isn't being confused when the Aborigines say similar things to White Australians. Maybe Henk you need to learn more than propaganda Boer Bullshit and start appreciating what others went through under Colonial Rule of the British. You highlighted quiet well the negative effects of British Colonial rule but ignored the fact of British justice and legal systems under the British Colonial powers in Commonwealth Countries that the English imposed and the Industrial areas the British brought with them into countries like Australia Newe Zealand South Africa India and Canada and also the educational areas brought into those former colonies of the British Empire. Yes it was an Empire in all respects but in areas it had benevolence as well. Can that be said of Indonesia (Dutch East Indies) when the Dutch your cousins ruled Indonesia for 400 plus years until the Japanese invaded and the Indonesians fought and sougth self government from Holland. Or now are you going to tell me Henk your Boer cousins in Indonesia were very kind to the Bahassia Indonesians in 400 years of Dutch East India rule. You talk about 25,000 Boers men women and children herded up into concentration camps by the British in the Boer War. regrettable that occurred but when a Boer can come to me and explain a 1000 years of rape murder torture and the suppression of the heritage and culture that I spring from that was committed by the English in my Ancestrial Home then I may listen to your Boer Propaganda Bullshit. But according to your statements about the Boers versus the English your own blind hatred of anything British is apparent. Don't talk to me that in 2007 you still feel the pain of the Boer being deprived in South Africa since 1902 after the Boer War finished and the Concentration camps that sprung up under Lord Kitcheneer in South Africa along the Transvaal and the Velds of South Africa until such time you under stand the reasoning of Edward 1st known as Long Shanks and the Hammer of the Scots and of William of Orange the Duke of Cumberland who had Scots murdered on the battlefield of Culloden in 1746 after the Battle. Oh yes I forgot Duke of Cumberland may have had an English title but he was Dutch from the family of Hanover. He earned the title from the Scots calling him Stinking Billy a noxious weed found in Scotland along road sides in that Country. It seems Henk that you conviently forget the Boers intrusion into South Africa prior to the British coming to Cape Town and the rest of South Africa for your own convience and enshrine such Boer Historical events like the Long Trek into the Veldts of South Africa. Did Boers go into the Transvaal with peace and love for the Kaffirs with the Dutch Methodist Bibles in your wagons or was it rifles and muskets that were on hand to kill Kaffirs. Your fellow Boers immortalize that Trek but you forget what impact it had on the Kaffirs at the time for your own conviences. Did the English at the time see it as a Dutch Holiday carnival atmosphere that Boers went into the Veldts to do this regardless of how the Kaffirs felt at the time? so do not prach to me about how bad the English were towards the Kaffirs when the Boers had their own agendas in dealing with the Kaffirs. One thing I can not tolerate is blind prejudices and distortion of history Henk when by your own partial admission the Boers once controlling South African affairs continued by free will to carry on apartheid Governmental system upon the Kaffirs
Glider
Captain
I had to read this twice as I couldn't believe what was being said. To sum up.
a) South Africa demanded independance from Great Britain.
b) We agreed to that and South Africa is independent.
c) The UK and the rest of the world tell South Africa that Apartheid is not the way to run a country.
d) You blame the UK for the Apartheid approach that South Africa has chosen as an independent country. That bit I cannot understand
e) You say that the UK is responsible for all your problems and to prove it we should live in SA as you do and that would prove it
f) You say that life for the Blacks (not a word I would have chosen) was better under apartheid than now.
to e) and f) I suggest the following
e) SA has been independent for a long time now and other countires have developed significantly over that time. Sugggest you start with Singapore, a small country with no natural resorces worth mentioning. If you are stuck in the past after all this time then its your fault, not someone elses.
f) Suggest you try living as a black under apartheid and see how it feels before making bold statements.
PS I work with both coloured and white people from SA and its something that both have discussed a number of times.
I now duck out of this unless we want to talk aircraft or related topics.
No significant contribution?
In his summing up of the year up to August 1943, Murray wrote:
These are from The German Air Force versus Russia, 1943. That's a paper written by Generalleuntant Herman Plocher for the USAF in 1957.
There's a problem, Udet. You have changed your claim. What you claimed the first time, and what I responded to, was:
The words "have destroyed" were not there, rather "effectively destroyed", which isn't quite the same thing. The words "all by themselves" were not there at all.
There's a huge difference between a small sector and the entire front. More from Plocher:
Now, what I wrote originally is that there was "some truth" to the claim the Luftwaffe was "effectively destroyed" by 1943. That's true.
No, all quite accurate actually.
A conflict of interest? Do you understand what a conflict of interest is? As examples, a lawyer representing client A in a case against B, when B is a close friend of the lawyer. Or a politician giving a contract to company A, and rejecting the bid of company B, when the politician's wife is a director of company A.
So what exactly do you mean by "conflict of interest"?
Henk
Master Sergeant
Mate I think you should vissot me her in South Africa and I will show you what I mean. I would love to show it for my self. Remember I give you everything that the black government even say is true and what they give as correct facts not just from the non black people.
So mate I think we take this to a other topic and chat more about this.
Emac44
Staff Sergeant
It is fine with me Henk. I perfer to drop this as it is not the avenue to discuss this and others may not approve of the subject at hand. I would dearly love to visit South Africa as it ties in significantly with Australia in more ways than one. Besides the Boer War. There are great sporting avenues like Cricket and Rugby to consider, Ok Henk lets agree to disagree and leave it at that
Henk
Master Sergeant
Yes, but still would like to discuss this.
Glider
Captain
There can be no doubt that the losses that the Germans suffered in Russia were very significant and with the casualties incurred on the other fronts stopped Germany from building up her reserves. Germany was stretched to far and was restricted to reacting to events and not carrying out any meaningfull long term plans.
It isn't fair I believe, to claim that any one front destroyed Germany's ability to win the air battle, it was a cumlative process.
Udet referred to the battles over Kuban in 1943, this only proves that Germany were able to concentrate its resources to get local superiority for a limited period. Germany was rightly known for its ability to get the most out of its resources.
A similar situation existed in WW1 where Germany could concentrate on a point in the line and have superiority but only at the cost of surrendering superiority over the majority of the front. This was the very reason for the formation of the famous WW1 Flying Circus's.
It isn't fair I believe, to claim that any one front destroyed Germany's ability to win the air battle, it was a cumlative process.
Udet referred to the battles over Kuban in 1943, this only proves that Germany were able to concentrate its resources to get local superiority for a limited period. Germany was rightly known for its ability to get the most out of its resources.
A similar situation existed in WW1 where Germany could concentrate on a point in the line and have superiority but only at the cost of surrendering superiority over the majority of the front. This was the very reason for the formation of the famous WW1 Flying Circus's.
Just start up another thread about it, and then this can stay WW2 myths.
Henk
Master Sergeant
Well if Emac44 wanted to but he does not seem to go on with the conversation so it is cool.
