WWII MISTERIES: What happened with the JU390?
- Thread starter Pepe Sanchez
- Start date
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There is a lot of crap out on the internet right now that a lot of people take for gold. They need to read some true accounts from the people that flew the planes.
Erich
the old Sage
problem is and we have all discussed this.............too much of the internet is taken as fact with no questions asked. Find some good resource materials like books and esepcially for the a/c in this thread, German language. R.Leonard mentioned Dr. Kössler/Ott's famous and OOP book on the subject matter and there are a couple others on the air recon war over the Atlantic, sadly way too few though ...........
I am willing to translate things that are in German. If they are really long it might take me a while but I am willing to translate things. Just not whole books or anything like that.
Kiwikid
Airman 1st Class
Firstly the Ju-390 mission to New York in original accounts cited in the Hugo Junkers website, an acknowledged authority on Junkers aircraft, refers to a two aircraft mission to New York, which may be a hint about possible air to air refuelling en-route by another aircraft ?
It may have even been recorded in the squadron records as an air to air refuelling trial rather than "mission to New York".
I do not know that for a fact and neither does anyone else, so let us put that thought aside for a moment and look at the other facts...
BMW 801E Fuel Consumption:
The Ju-390 used six BMW 801E engines which were identical to the BMW 801D except the E version was geared for better performance at altitude. In all other regards one can consider them the same. The E version had about a 100hp superiority at altitude.
The BMW 801E had a boost function for take off, by injection of a water methanol mixture into the left supercharger inlet. This could only be used for 10-15 minutes. Only at these boost settings does the fuel consumption rise to 221 US Gals PH.
This take off boost raised power to 2,000hp at a manifold pressure of 1.56 atmospheres and 2700 RPM. Usual fast cruise settings (on the FW-190A BMW 801D) were 2100 RPM at 1450hp and 1.1 atmospheres of manifold pressure.
A climb to 19,000 feet for an FW-190A fighter with a single BMW 801D engine consumed about 16 US gallons of fuel and took about 8 minutes to reach altitude. Let us assume double that for the Ju-390. That's 192 US gals to reach 19,000 ft.
Once at altitude, the BMW 801D will use 90-103 US Gallons Per Hour (GPH) if it is used at maximum cruise speed, but the Ju-390 would not have been flown at max cruise power to New York.
Any pilot will tell you, for over water flights, you do not use maximum cruise settings. Commercial airliners will use an intermediate Economical Cruise setting, but for a military plane one uses the long range cruise setting. In the case of the Ju-390 this was 45-55 US Gals PH at around 1600-1700 RPM per engine..
This falls falls way short of the 150 US Gals Per Hour which Richard claims.
Evanglider said:
Erich said about experts:
The Real Facts
Using six engines at long range cruise of 55 US Gallons Per Hour for 32 hours equates 63,360 pounds of fuel, plus 1,152 lb for take off and climb to 19,000ft. That makes for a total of 64,512 lb fuel.
The round trip distance Richard Leonard cites (7900nm) would take a Ju-390 29 hours, or just 57,420lb of fuel plus 1,152 lb for climb to altitude.
A total of 58,572lb. Add a 10% safety buffer of 5,640lb and you get a total around 64,429lb. So this is the actual fuel weight for a mission of 7,900nm with a 10% reserve.
Add this mission fuel uptake (64,429lb) to the Operating Empty Weight of the Ju-390 gives you 151,329 lb.
Subtract 151,329 lb from the Maximum Take Off Weight (166,100 lb) leaves a payload ability to New York of 14,771 lb/6,706kg. Enough for an A-bomb.
Payload for extra Range
So we have a payload capability from Mont de Marsan to New York taking the longer route Richard perfers of 6,706kg.
There is only one type of bomb worth carrying all that distance and we know what that was. We know the equivalent used at Hiroshima weighed about 5,000kg as I understand.
Range Calculations
Richard Leonard cited the maximum range of the Ju-390 as 9,700km, 6027sm (or 5,288nm). That is wrong.
He starts by subtracting fuel reserves from the lesser maximum payload range and then proceeds to get it wrong about fuel consumption by the engines.
A round trip mission of 7,900nm was well within the maximum fuel range of 8,710nm.
Incidentally the direct distance is only a mere 6,230nm, but to save argument I have worked from Richard Leonard's overly conservative 7,900nm which is 1,670nm more than necessary.
If you want to explain the discrepancy, first start with correct facts. That way you might find the discrepancy does not even exist!
Nothing in the posts up to this one disproves the ability of a Ju-390 to fly to New York with a bombload. It only advertises a poor grasp of the facts.
The claim incidentally arises from interrogations of two captured members of FernAufklarangsGruppe Nr.5 by US millitary intelligence.
Now if one were contemplating a highly top secret mission to drop an A-bomb on Manahatten, then one would not advertise the fact by keeping records of trial flights, nor for that matter, sharing the fact with all the members of FAGr5.
There was a Nazi nuclear project to build the bomb. Heisenberg was involved with the civil programme by Kaiser Wilhelm Gesellschaft to build a reactor... Not a bomb.
The Nazi A-bomb was under Dr Kurt Diebner for the Heerswaffenamt. He relied upon another project by Dr Paul Harteck to enrich uranium with gaseous centrifuges. The uranium came from mines at Jac-y-camor Czechoslovakia.
The second Ju-390 was flown to Uraguay at the end of the war and was seen there being dismantled by a Polish diplomat. You might want to contact author Nick Cook (author of Zero Point) and ask him if Igor Witowski was that man...
I provide a link to photos of the two Ju-390 prototypes.
Axis History Forum :: View topic - Ju 390 Help!
It may have even been recorded in the squadron records as an air to air refuelling trial rather than "mission to New York".
I do not know that for a fact and neither does anyone else, so let us put that thought aside for a moment and look at the other facts...
BMW 801E Fuel Consumption:
The Ju-390 used six BMW 801E engines which were identical to the BMW 801D except the E version was geared for better performance at altitude. In all other regards one can consider them the same. The E version had about a 100hp superiority at altitude.
The BMW 801E had a boost function for take off, by injection of a water methanol mixture into the left supercharger inlet. This could only be used for 10-15 minutes. Only at these boost settings does the fuel consumption rise to 221 US Gals PH.
This take off boost raised power to 2,000hp at a manifold pressure of 1.56 atmospheres and 2700 RPM. Usual fast cruise settings (on the FW-190A BMW 801D) were 2100 RPM at 1450hp and 1.1 atmospheres of manifold pressure.
A climb to 19,000 feet for an FW-190A fighter with a single BMW 801D engine consumed about 16 US gallons of fuel and took about 8 minutes to reach altitude. Let us assume double that for the Ju-390. That's 192 US gals to reach 19,000 ft.
Once at altitude, the BMW 801D will use 90-103 US Gallons Per Hour (GPH) if it is used at maximum cruise speed, but the Ju-390 would not have been flown at max cruise power to New York.
Any pilot will tell you, for over water flights, you do not use maximum cruise settings. Commercial airliners will use an intermediate Economical Cruise setting, but for a military plane one uses the long range cruise setting. In the case of the Ju-390 this was 45-55 US Gals PH at around 1600-1700 RPM per engine..
This falls falls way short of the 150 US Gals Per Hour which Richard claims.
Evanglider said:
Erich said about experts:
The Real Facts
Using six engines at long range cruise of 55 US Gallons Per Hour for 32 hours equates 63,360 pounds of fuel, plus 1,152 lb for take off and climb to 19,000ft. That makes for a total of 64,512 lb fuel.
The round trip distance Richard Leonard cites (7900nm) would take a Ju-390 29 hours, or just 57,420lb of fuel plus 1,152 lb for climb to altitude.
A total of 58,572lb. Add a 10% safety buffer of 5,640lb and you get a total around 64,429lb. So this is the actual fuel weight for a mission of 7,900nm with a 10% reserve.
Add this mission fuel uptake (64,429lb) to the Operating Empty Weight of the Ju-390 gives you 151,329 lb.
Subtract 151,329 lb from the Maximum Take Off Weight (166,100 lb) leaves a payload ability to New York of 14,771 lb/6,706kg. Enough for an A-bomb.
Payload for extra Range
So we have a payload capability from Mont de Marsan to New York taking the longer route Richard perfers of 6,706kg.
There is only one type of bomb worth carrying all that distance and we know what that was. We know the equivalent used at Hiroshima weighed about 5,000kg as I understand.
Range Calculations
Richard Leonard cited the maximum range of the Ju-390 as 9,700km, 6027sm (or 5,288nm). That is wrong.
He starts by subtracting fuel reserves from the lesser maximum payload range and then proceeds to get it wrong about fuel consumption by the engines.
A round trip mission of 7,900nm was well within the maximum fuel range of 8,710nm.
Incidentally the direct distance is only a mere 6,230nm, but to save argument I have worked from Richard Leonard's overly conservative 7,900nm which is 1,670nm more than necessary.
If you want to explain the discrepancy, first start with correct facts. That way you might find the discrepancy does not even exist!
Nothing in the posts up to this one disproves the ability of a Ju-390 to fly to New York with a bombload. It only advertises a poor grasp of the facts.
The claim incidentally arises from interrogations of two captured members of FernAufklarangsGruppe Nr.5 by US millitary intelligence.
Now if one were contemplating a highly top secret mission to drop an A-bomb on Manahatten, then one would not advertise the fact by keeping records of trial flights, nor for that matter, sharing the fact with all the members of FAGr5.
There was a Nazi nuclear project to build the bomb. Heisenberg was involved with the civil programme by Kaiser Wilhelm Gesellschaft to build a reactor... Not a bomb.
The Nazi A-bomb was under Dr Kurt Diebner for the Heerswaffenamt. He relied upon another project by Dr Paul Harteck to enrich uranium with gaseous centrifuges. The uranium came from mines at Jac-y-camor Czechoslovakia.
The second Ju-390 was flown to Uraguay at the end of the war and was seen there being dismantled by a Polish diplomat. You might want to contact author Nick Cook (author of Zero Point) and ask him if Igor Witowski was that man...
I provide a link to photos of the two Ju-390 prototypes.
Axis History Forum :: View topic - Ju 390 Help!
Interesting read. I would not call the posts up until now a bad grasp of the facts though.
I have several books on the KG200 and the Amerika Bomber program with copies of documents in them and interviews with the pilots. That is where I get my facts from...
If you would like to check out the books here they are:
KG 200 The Luftwaffe's Most Secret Unit by Geoffrey J. Thomas and Barry Ketley
Luftwaffe Over America The Secret Plans to Bomb the United States in WWII by Manfred Griehl.
I have several books on the KG200 and the Amerika Bomber program with copies of documents in them and interviews with the pilots. That is where I get my facts from...
If you would like to check out the books here they are:
KG 200 The Luftwaffe's Most Secret Unit by Geoffrey J. Thomas and Barry Ketley
Luftwaffe Over America The Secret Plans to Bomb the United States in WWII by Manfred Griehl.
delcyros
Tech Sergeant
Actually the thread is in ww2general section. You have to go back to almost one year (don´t ask me..)
It´s called: "New evidence for a german nuclear project?"
The author is not 100% correct at all but he did made some good historical archive research in Russia. So far, only the detonation at Ohrdruf delivered trace elements, which do point toward a nuclear event. Wether or not this may be called "Nuke" is a matter of debate. The amount of fission is too low (only a fraction) for a sustained nuclear chain reaction. The conditions of nuclear activities were very shortlived and provided only temporarely (if even) reactions. Still a very capable weapontest but not the Nuke You might have in mind. A very, very dirty bomb, however.
The only plane of the Luftwaffe to undergoe structural modifications to carry a nuclear weapon (or an unusually heavy single bomb) is said to be a He-177, modified in march 1945 at Prague plant. There are no hints what happened to the plane, though.
It´s called: "New evidence for a german nuclear project?"
The author is not 100% correct at all but he did made some good historical archive research in Russia. So far, only the detonation at Ohrdruf delivered trace elements, which do point toward a nuclear event. Wether or not this may be called "Nuke" is a matter of debate. The amount of fission is too low (only a fraction) for a sustained nuclear chain reaction. The conditions of nuclear activities were very shortlived and provided only temporarely (if even) reactions. Still a very capable weapontest but not the Nuke You might have in mind. A very, very dirty bomb, however.
The only plane of the Luftwaffe to undergoe structural modifications to carry a nuclear weapon (or an unusually heavy single bomb) is said to be a He-177, modified in march 1945 at Prague plant. There are no hints what happened to the plane, though.
Kiwikid
Airman 1st Class
DerAdlerIstGelandet and other apologies for ruffling feathers. I post on LEMB and Axis History aswell, but I am new here. I find that every forum on WW2 has a treasure trove of information unavailable somewhere else.
To be fair Richard Leonard did say:
We all get things wrong from time to time, but if unchallenged then it becomes established as fact, or as a lawyer would say, like an estoppel.
I do accept his right to question if the New York flight took place.
The performance of an aircraft however is not a little thing to trifle with. The Reichs Luft Ministerim during the war employed test pilots to establish and certify the Ju-390's performance, including it's endurance.
Albert Speer is the source of a further claim that a Ju-390 flown by a civil test pilot flew from Norway to Tokyo "by the Polar route."
Author Nick Cook ("Zero Point") advised me in correspondence that he knows a former Polish Diplomat whom he is loathe to name, who witnessed a Ju-390 being dismantled in Uraguay at the end of the war. I suspect he is talking about Igor Witowski, but can not be certain.
During the war a General Stuedemann (apparently an artillery construction engineer) Built a long runway at Cordoba in northern Argentina with German emigres there. (source book "Nazi Eagles")
I have not read "Luftwaffe Over America The Secret Plans to Bomb the United States in WWII" by Manfred Griehl. I'd be interested to know what he says.
I am convinced the nazis were building an A-bomb and could have done so bu enriching uranium with gaseous centifuges. Indeed I known that a big contract was let in 1944 for manufacture of these centrifuges.
South Africa used this same process to build a nuclear weapon.
I am less convinced by the blast at Ohrdruf and feel it is capable of other explanations, such as fuel air explosives.
The Japanese successfully test blasted an atomic weapon off Korea's east coast two days after Hiroshima. This is detailed in the Snell report for the Manhatten Project. Snell was a millitary criminal investigator who became a journalist after the war.
See Suitland archives Records Group 331, Box 7419, bid sheets 564353, 564354 and 564356, plus R.G. 319, Box 3635, bid sheet and military Intelligence Section report #403527, plus R.G. 319 Box 91 739.
There are other reports in corroboration however the list would be too long.
If you check the Farm Hall summaries of Dornberger's conversations you will learn that he and Werner von Braun went to Lisbon in October 1944 with the blessings of the SS to negotiate the handover of nazi nuclear, aviation and rocket scientists to ALSOS (BEFORE THE WAR HAD ENDED).
This to me at least is why the germans never finished an A-bomb.
To be fair Richard Leonard did say:
We all get things wrong from time to time, but if unchallenged then it becomes established as fact, or as a lawyer would say, like an estoppel.
I do accept his right to question if the New York flight took place.
The performance of an aircraft however is not a little thing to trifle with. The Reichs Luft Ministerim during the war employed test pilots to establish and certify the Ju-390's performance, including it's endurance.
Albert Speer is the source of a further claim that a Ju-390 flown by a civil test pilot flew from Norway to Tokyo "by the Polar route."
Author Nick Cook ("Zero Point") advised me in correspondence that he knows a former Polish Diplomat whom he is loathe to name, who witnessed a Ju-390 being dismantled in Uraguay at the end of the war. I suspect he is talking about Igor Witowski, but can not be certain.
During the war a General Stuedemann (apparently an artillery construction engineer) Built a long runway at Cordoba in northern Argentina with German emigres there. (source book "Nazi Eagles")
I have not read "Luftwaffe Over America The Secret Plans to Bomb the United States in WWII" by Manfred Griehl. I'd be interested to know what he says.
I am convinced the nazis were building an A-bomb and could have done so bu enriching uranium with gaseous centifuges. Indeed I known that a big contract was let in 1944 for manufacture of these centrifuges.
South Africa used this same process to build a nuclear weapon.
I am less convinced by the blast at Ohrdruf and feel it is capable of other explanations, such as fuel air explosives.
The Japanese successfully test blasted an atomic weapon off Korea's east coast two days after Hiroshima. This is detailed in the Snell report for the Manhatten Project. Snell was a millitary criminal investigator who became a journalist after the war.
See Suitland archives Records Group 331, Box 7419, bid sheets 564353, 564354 and 564356, plus R.G. 319, Box 3635, bid sheet and military Intelligence Section report #403527, plus R.G. 319 Box 91 739.
There are other reports in corroboration however the list would be too long.
If you check the Farm Hall summaries of Dornberger's conversations you will learn that he and Werner von Braun went to Lisbon in October 1944 with the blessings of the SS to negotiate the handover of nazi nuclear, aviation and rocket scientists to ALSOS (BEFORE THE WAR HAD ENDED).
This to me at least is why the germans never finished an A-bomb.
Kiwikid
Airman 1st Class
The He-177 V38 aircraft and two sisters were completed at Ruysne near Praugue in 1942 as nuclear capable bombers. They had especially elongated bomb bays which interestingly would have accomodated the bomb dropped on Hiroshima too.
By late 1944 the He-177 could not overfly Britain because of that country's air supremacy.
The Ju-287 V1 jet bomber however was test flown from October 1944. It had the nose and mid section of an He-177 grafted to the tail of a Ju-388. It was a very hasty modicication and not intended for serial production either.
It was vastly different to the Ju-287 V2/V3 or EF132 which became the Soviet Tu-16.
The Ju-287 V1 hoever was also distinguished by the fact it had a bomb bay identical to V-38's bomb bay. Indeed it may have been built from one of He-177 V38's two sister aircraft at Ruysne.
Ju 287 X-Plane aircraft by RTT Uwe Reitter
The significance of this is clear. V38 and her two sister He-177s were always intended to carry the Nazi A-bomb. In 1944-45 an He-177 could not survive over Britain but the jet powered Ju-287 could, was fast enough, had the range and importantly could carry a very heavy bombload.
By late 1944 the He-177 could not overfly Britain because of that country's air supremacy.
The Ju-287 V1 jet bomber however was test flown from October 1944. It had the nose and mid section of an He-177 grafted to the tail of a Ju-388. It was a very hasty modicication and not intended for serial production either.
It was vastly different to the Ju-287 V2/V3 or EF132 which became the Soviet Tu-16.
The Ju-287 V1 hoever was also distinguished by the fact it had a bomb bay identical to V-38's bomb bay. Indeed it may have been built from one of He-177 V38's two sister aircraft at Ruysne.
Ju 287 X-Plane aircraft by RTT Uwe Reitter
The significance of this is clear. V38 and her two sister He-177s were always intended to carry the Nazi A-bomb. In 1944-45 an He-177 could not survive over Britain but the jet powered Ju-287 could, was fast enough, had the range and importantly could carry a very heavy bombload.
Kiwikid
Airman 1st Class
Back to the Ju-390 topic, all flights to Japan, or Ninghsia in China were performed by aircraft in civil markings with civilian registrations. This included a Bv222 which reached Japanese Sakahlin Island, various Ju-290 aircraft and the Ju-390. The Ju-390 visit to Japan resulted in a license production deal. These flights were performed in the guise of DLH or Deutsche Luft Hansa. The Ju-390 flown to Japan was registered D-AZIL.
Kiwikid
Airman 1st Class
Sadly everybody who died in WW2 after October 1944 did so in vain because the German surrender was agreed months in advance.
Uh where do you get that from that the German surrendure was agreed in 1944. That is not true. Hitler never would have agreed to surrendure even in 1945. He would have let Germany be completely destroyed before allowing that.
There were those that were involved in the plot to kill Hitler that had sent correspondance to the allies in the summer of 1944 that they would surrendure as soon as Hitler was killed but as we know this never happened.
There were those that were involved in the plot to kill Hitler that had sent correspondance to the allies in the summer of 1944 that they would surrendure as soon as Hitler was killed but as we know this never happened.
Kiwikid
Airman 1st Class
At the end of WW2 all the german nuclear and some of the Rocket scientists etc were held in a British Manor house called "Farm Hall."
Every room was bugged with microphones. Lengthy transcripts were made, some of which are still classified top secret. many however have been published.
The most sensitive classified transcipts have either been entirely witheld or published as summaries. You guys need to Google "Farm Hall Transcripts" and see what turns up. I don't make this stuff up you know.
One of the sensitive summaries was between General Walter Dornberger, head of the V-2 rocket project until the SS took over in August 1944. he was recorded talking to another German general and disclosed the secret negotiations at Lisbon in October 1944.
This was a surprise to Churchill because USA double crossed the British and cut a secret deal which excluded the British. When Churchill found out on 27 April 1945, he broadcast details of the deal on the BBC, to alert Hitler that Himmler was part of a plot with the US to surrender Germany.
Hitler became enraged and ordered the arrest of Himmler and Goering. Himmler's deputy in Berlin and a spy for the US, Lt Gen Hans Feiglein was executed before Berlin fell.
Stalin learned about it from the BBC and nearly declared war on the US.
You should also Google "Operation Sunrise" or "Allen Foster Dulles" + Switzerland or Sunrise.
There were secret surrender talks with the SS from late 1944. The US cut a deal to excuse key members of the SS for war crimes and set up an escape line with the help of the Vatican for fleeing Nazis, providing them shelter and false passports.
In return the SS provided USA with it's spy network in the Soviet nion and surrendered all it's top scientists in "Operation Paperclip."
Google "Operation Paperclip" or "Overcast" to learn more.
I have done a huge amount of research on this and I am not making this stuff up.
Operation Sunrise
The Secret Farm Hall Transcripts
http://http://www.aip.org/history/heisenberg/p11a.htm
Every room was bugged with microphones. Lengthy transcripts were made, some of which are still classified top secret. many however have been published.
The most sensitive classified transcipts have either been entirely witheld or published as summaries. You guys need to Google "Farm Hall Transcripts" and see what turns up. I don't make this stuff up you know.
One of the sensitive summaries was between General Walter Dornberger, head of the V-2 rocket project until the SS took over in August 1944. he was recorded talking to another German general and disclosed the secret negotiations at Lisbon in October 1944.
This was a surprise to Churchill because USA double crossed the British and cut a secret deal which excluded the British. When Churchill found out on 27 April 1945, he broadcast details of the deal on the BBC, to alert Hitler that Himmler was part of a plot with the US to surrender Germany.
Hitler became enraged and ordered the arrest of Himmler and Goering. Himmler's deputy in Berlin and a spy for the US, Lt Gen Hans Feiglein was executed before Berlin fell.
Stalin learned about it from the BBC and nearly declared war on the US.
You should also Google "Operation Sunrise" or "Allen Foster Dulles" + Switzerland or Sunrise.
There were secret surrender talks with the SS from late 1944. The US cut a deal to excuse key members of the SS for war crimes and set up an escape line with the help of the Vatican for fleeing Nazis, providing them shelter and false passports.
In return the SS provided USA with it's spy network in the Soviet nion and surrendered all it's top scientists in "Operation Paperclip."
Google "Operation Paperclip" or "Overcast" to learn more.
I have done a huge amount of research on this and I am not making this stuff up.
Operation Sunrise
The Secret Farm Hall Transcripts
http://http://www.aip.org/history/heisenberg/p11a.htm
Yes you are correct that they met and tried for a negotiations but no agreements were made. All negotiations failed and nothing came about them. The surrendure of Germany was not sealed in 1944 as you say.
Himmler met the Count Folke Bernadotte of Sweden at Lübeck, near the Danish border, and began negotiations to surrender. He was hoping that England and the US would fight allong side the Germans to defeat Russia. No agreement was made.
Hitler found out about this the day before he commited suicide and had Himmler stripped of all ranks and titles and positions the day before he commited suicide.
After this failed he:
He sent corrispondance to Eisenhower saying he was willing to surrendure all German forces in exchange for being spared war criminal status and that he wanted to be Head of German Police in Post War Germany.
Eisenhower as well wanted nothing to do with this and declared him a war criminal.
While trying to evade capture and in disguise he was arrested and then committed suicide on May 22, 1945.
As for Goering. Hitler had Goering arrested on April 25, 1945 because he sent a telegram proposing that he be named the Fuehrer when Hitler is incapacitated. Hitler found this to be High Treason and had him arrested and stipped of all titles and expelled him from the party.
2 days before Hitler commited suicide he ordered Behrnhard Frank to kill Goering and his family which he refused to do.
He later surrendured to the allies and commited suicide.
Goering had nothing to do with the failed negotiations to end the war in 1944 and 1945 and was staunch Nazi unti l his death.
Himmler met the Count Folke Bernadotte of Sweden at Lübeck, near the Danish border, and began negotiations to surrender. He was hoping that England and the US would fight allong side the Germans to defeat Russia. No agreement was made.
Hitler found out about this the day before he commited suicide and had Himmler stripped of all ranks and titles and positions the day before he commited suicide.
After this failed he:
He sent corrispondance to Eisenhower saying he was willing to surrendure all German forces in exchange for being spared war criminal status and that he wanted to be Head of German Police in Post War Germany.
Eisenhower as well wanted nothing to do with this and declared him a war criminal.
While trying to evade capture and in disguise he was arrested and then committed suicide on May 22, 1945.
As for Goering. Hitler had Goering arrested on April 25, 1945 because he sent a telegram proposing that he be named the Fuehrer when Hitler is incapacitated. Hitler found this to be High Treason and had him arrested and stipped of all titles and expelled him from the party.
2 days before Hitler commited suicide he ordered Behrnhard Frank to kill Goering and his family which he refused to do.
He later surrendured to the allies and commited suicide.
Goering had nothing to do with the failed negotiations to end the war in 1944 and 1945 and was staunch Nazi unti l his death.
Kiwikid
Airman 1st Class
Hitler never agreed. Hitler was trying to deal with the russians right up until his suicide when he sent SS Gen Wilhelm Mohnke under a white flag to negotiate with Marshall Zuhkov.
Hitler offered to surrender all of Northern Germany and Denmark to Stalin in return for his escape to Tokyo.
Himmler was exasperated and plotted to overthrow Hitler and succeed as the peace time leader of Germany. The Americans refused to deal with Himmler, however himmler clung to a delusion that he could still retain power.
The SS negotiators not only had to deal with a dangerous and irrational Hitler, but also manipulate and massage Himmler's ego to please the Americans.
The SS stalled and stalled because Himmler would not accept an unconditional surrender. There was substantial agreement long before May 1945 however. There was a discreet agreement for the surrender of scientists and scientific data aswell. A train was loaded with rocket test data, engineering drawings etc at Peenemunde in mid March 1945 and sent south to Bavaria by Kammler so the Americans could capture it.
The ALSOS mission drove right up to Mittenwalde where Werner von Braun and the nuclear scientists were in "hiding" without a shot fired to stop them. This was deep inside the so called Nazi redoubt.
von Braun's brother Sigsmund who was a Nazi diplomatic attache at the Vatican arranged with the full knowledge of Martin Bormann to create the so called Rat Lines long before 1945, so that nazis could flee the collapse of Germany. The OSS assisted these nazis to escape and fully participated in the creation of these Rat Lines because they inserted OSS spies behind the Eastern Front with Nazi help, before the war ended.
There is an official version of the surrender and then there was a discreet understanding between the SS and OSS which predates that.
When Stalin found out about Sunrise, he was furious and demanded that there be a second surrender ceremony. Sunrise was exposed and no longer secret, but a cover story was spun to placate the Soviets.
There was a surrender made on 2 May, 7 May and on 8 May 1945. There was a secretive surrender to American forces even earlier. Why do you think US forces drove into Germany with so little resistance ?
Hitler offered to surrender all of Northern Germany and Denmark to Stalin in return for his escape to Tokyo.
Himmler was exasperated and plotted to overthrow Hitler and succeed as the peace time leader of Germany. The Americans refused to deal with Himmler, however himmler clung to a delusion that he could still retain power.
The SS negotiators not only had to deal with a dangerous and irrational Hitler, but also manipulate and massage Himmler's ego to please the Americans.
The SS stalled and stalled because Himmler would not accept an unconditional surrender. There was substantial agreement long before May 1945 however. There was a discreet agreement for the surrender of scientists and scientific data aswell. A train was loaded with rocket test data, engineering drawings etc at Peenemunde in mid March 1945 and sent south to Bavaria by Kammler so the Americans could capture it.
The ALSOS mission drove right up to Mittenwalde where Werner von Braun and the nuclear scientists were in "hiding" without a shot fired to stop them. This was deep inside the so called Nazi redoubt.
von Braun's brother Sigsmund who was a Nazi diplomatic attache at the Vatican arranged with the full knowledge of Martin Bormann to create the so called Rat Lines long before 1945, so that nazis could flee the collapse of Germany. The OSS assisted these nazis to escape and fully participated in the creation of these Rat Lines because they inserted OSS spies behind the Eastern Front with Nazi help, before the war ended.
There is an official version of the surrender and then there was a discreet understanding between the SS and OSS which predates that.
When Stalin found out about Sunrise, he was furious and demanded that there be a second surrender ceremony. Sunrise was exposed and no longer secret, but a cover story was spun to placate the Soviets.
There was a surrender made on 2 May, 7 May and on 8 May 1945. There was a secretive surrender to American forces even earlier. Why do you think US forces drove into Germany with so little resistance ?
Twitch
Staff Sergeant
Yeah the Germans could have deployed a radiation spreading device at any time from 1943 on. As Kiwi mentions they were also using centrifuges as the Japanese had since 1936 to enrich materials so the big heavy water sabotage was more drama for the cinema than denying of materials. Shipments to Germany had been ongoing and there was hevy water in Germany found at the end of the war.
The Me 264 had the range with plenty to spare had wacky Adolph given the word to nuke New York. Also we must realize that at the time the Allies had absolutely no idea the status of nuclear weapons in Germany. There were several US War Dept. memos warning of V-1s with nukes and other possible scenarios with U-boats and missiles.
The Me 264 had the range with plenty to spare had wacky Adolph given the word to nuke New York. Also we must realize that at the time the Allies had absolutely no idea the status of nuclear weapons in Germany. There were several US War Dept. memos warning of V-1s with nukes and other possible scenarios with U-boats and missiles.
I am going to have to read up on this some more Kiwi because I think you are getting facts mixed up with a bit of post war myth.
Kiwikid
Airman 1st Class
Yes sometimes I have gotten my facts mixed up, but there was also a huge effort by the Nazis to conceal evidence, witnessed by the month long orgy of Luftwaffe files being burned at Linz Austria in April 1945.
Since posting here I have found out that the second Ju-390 was flown to Argentina in May 1945 from Bodo Norway, in Sweedish airline markings.
There is evidence of this from multiple sources, but include declassified Polish files and Argentine economic files from 1945 about Nazi flights to Gualeguay, Entre Rios province.
Polish evidence suggests it was flown from Gualeguay to an airstrip on a German owned ranch at Paysandu province, Uruguay. there it was witnessed by a Polish diplomat being dismantled.
The Ju-390V1 was flown to Junkerswerke Dessau in November 1944. there it was stripped of propellers and left derelict until burned in April 1945 to prevent it's capture.
Since posting here I have found out that the second Ju-390 was flown to Argentina in May 1945 from Bodo Norway, in Sweedish airline markings.
There is evidence of this from multiple sources, but include declassified Polish files and Argentine economic files from 1945 about Nazi flights to Gualeguay, Entre Rios province.
Polish evidence suggests it was flown from Gualeguay to an airstrip on a German owned ranch at Paysandu province, Uruguay. there it was witnessed by a Polish diplomat being dismantled.
The Ju-390V1 was flown to Junkerswerke Dessau in November 1944. there it was stripped of propellers and left derelict until burned in April 1945 to prevent it's capture.
Kiwikid
Airman 1st Class
These links are for photos of Bodo in Norway where the Ju-390 appeared to operate to in March/April 1945:
Panoramio - Photo of Bodø Airport
Panoramio - Photo of norway bodo from the air
Bodo was home to Stukas mostly during WW2, but in the Berlin Records Centre there is evidence of Ju-390 flights at Bodo.
A service course sheet available at Berlin Document Centre for the interrogation of SS-Obersturmbannfuehrer Rudolf Schuster attached to SS-WVHA Amt-V zbV.
Schuster stated that in the second half of April 1945 a Junkers Ju 390 attached to KG 200 was at Schweidnitz (an airfield SW of Breslau) where it loaded materials from a secret project coded "Cronos/Laternentraeger."
The Ju-390 was painted pale blue and had Swedish AF markings. It was guarded by SS and concealed beneath tarpaulin. It is known to have taken off for Bodo in Norway, but nothing further is known of its activity.
Dr Wilhelm Voss, head of the Skoda works in Prague and part of Kammler's staff told British journalist Tom Agoston after the war that a Ju-390 flew from Bodo to Tokyo on 28 March 1945.
Schuster sighted it near Breslau after this flight.
Declassified Argentine and Polish Intelligence files have recently suggested it's last flight was from Bodo to Gualaguay Argentina and then to Paysandu Uruguay where the aircraft was observed being dismantled.
Panoramio - Photo of Bodø Airport
Panoramio - Photo of norway bodo from the air
Bodo was home to Stukas mostly during WW2, but in the Berlin Records Centre there is evidence of Ju-390 flights at Bodo.
A service course sheet available at Berlin Document Centre for the interrogation of SS-Obersturmbannfuehrer Rudolf Schuster attached to SS-WVHA Amt-V zbV.
Schuster stated that in the second half of April 1945 a Junkers Ju 390 attached to KG 200 was at Schweidnitz (an airfield SW of Breslau) where it loaded materials from a secret project coded "Cronos/Laternentraeger."
The Ju-390 was painted pale blue and had Swedish AF markings. It was guarded by SS and concealed beneath tarpaulin. It is known to have taken off for Bodo in Norway, but nothing further is known of its activity.
Dr Wilhelm Voss, head of the Skoda works in Prague and part of Kammler's staff told British journalist Tom Agoston after the war that a Ju-390 flew from Bodo to Tokyo on 28 March 1945.
Schuster sighted it near Breslau after this flight.
Declassified Argentine and Polish Intelligence files have recently suggested it's last flight was from Bodo to Gualaguay Argentina and then to Paysandu Uruguay where the aircraft was observed being dismantled.
Kiwikid
Airman 1st Class
I though members might be interested to make comparison of the two known Ju-390 aircraft. The Ju-390 V2 had the longer fuselage. The Ju-390 V-1 bomber modified from a Ju-90 had a shorter fuselage.
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