WWII MISTERIES: What happened with the JU390?

[hartmann]

Pathetic? , Why? It was allmost as fast as a B17, carried a decent defensive armament, and It was not as weak as the Fw200. Evidently, It was not hte best, but pathetic?. IMHO, It would have been a decent to good ultra-range bomber. Even it had a lot of engine power (6 BMW801 E with 1980 hp).
In other things, It was succesful in aerial refuelling to the Ju 290? I saw some of this.

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

the same could be said for any heavy bomber to a cirtain extent, New york's right on America's east coast and the germans wouldn't have to fly over britiain so they stand a good chance of making it across the atlantic undetected, perhaps taking a more southerly route, although i'll be the first to admit i don't know what the US's home defence was like, i mean their radar system and their east coast fighter units ready to scramble..........

 

[hartmann]

In fact it seems that they made a 32 hours non stop fly until some 10- 20 Km of distance from the East coast undetected, and returned, and it was in the year 1944¡¡¡, so It looks like they didn´t waited visits from the Germans, hehehe

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

as erich said, KG200 don't record any such mission......

 

[Erich]

Hartmann, as lanc said no Gemran a/c made any flight towards the USA. It is myth that started back up in the 1960's in William Greens A/C of the Third Reich in multiple printings. Almost every web-site and book covering the Ju 290/390 has the statements that it did happen and the info was taken as truth. there is no confirmation of any evidence to support the claim in the histories of FAGr 5 and KG 200 to support this notion ........ although quite interesting had it indeed happened.

v/r E ~

 

[hartmann]

I didn´t knew , I just remembered what I saw in a book, but... If I remember well it didn´t make reference to the KG200, just only a mission with a trials pilot, and so one.

 

[Erich]

FAGr 5 has been mentioned as the unit doing a stealth flight towards New York and then returning without being discovered. it did not happen as during the time of this flight the units two staffels were helping the depleted U-boot arm discover Allied shiping lanes to attack. Truly the Ju 290 was one of the best all time maritime a/c to be flown during the war, much better in my eyes than the proven Fw 200 Kondor.

 

[hartmann]

a lot of thanks Erich, I just saw this in a book and I posted . There must be a lot of inacurate data , which needs to be correct and revised. And, where did it happened this flight with the FAGR 5, It is very interesting

 

[Erich]

I had heard some 5 years ago from a German contact who was friends with several survivng members of FAGR 5, that the vets themselves were writing the history of their Gruppe. I wish them a huge success becuase once it is written we will then be able to put the New York flight story to rest and find out about other very stealth operations the gruppe was involved in besides their prime mission of suporting the Kriegsmarine U-boot arm.

did you know the unit flew recon ops in the Arado 234 towards wars end in the spring of 1945. so as many books have said that FAGr 5 was dissolved and obsorbed by KG 200 and disbanded this is not quite true

E

 

[hartmann]

Very interesting¡¡¡¡, I have a lot of interest about these secret flies over the east coast. It is truth that there was a very large range bomber group based in Norway in last moths of war somewhere in Kristiansand, with some 40 long range bombers and recconaisance airplanes, Erich?
A lot of thanks in advance

 

[Erich]

ok hartmann, maybe I am not making myself too clear. There were no flights over the east coast of the USA by any Luftwaffe unit. Units talked of it but never put it into application.

Several units flying the Ar 234 were based out of the north, and Norway was one of the countries......yes, but no long range bomber groups. The fuels were not there and long range bombers were brining agents and high third reich officials to safer areas from the Ost front - Berlin, etc. there was even talk of escorting Hitler out of Berlin in april of 45 to Argentina in a Ju 290

 

[R Leonard]

just a little note:
the ju 390 v2 managed to fly to a point 12 miles north of new york and returned succesfully

Ummm, there are a few problems with this story . . .

According to William Green (Warplanes of the Third Reich), the usual source for the mission claim, it went thusly:
. . . "In January 1944, the Ju 390 was assigned to Fernaufklaerungs-Gruppe 5 (Long-Range Reconnaissance
Group) at Mont de Marson south of Bordeaux, for operational evaluation. The Ju 390 carried sufficient fuel for an
endurance of 32 hours, and after a few short-distance flights, the aircraft flew from Mont de Marson to a point some
12 miles from the US coast, north of New York, returning successfully to its base." I understand the story; Green's
source was an interrogation transcript in an intelligence report from 11 August 1944, detailing the questioning of
captured German personnel. A prisoner, who claimed having been photo assistant in Mont de Marsan, made the
New York flight claim during his interview. A second prisoner, in the same report, said that the Ju 390 had an
endurance of 32 hours.

Let's look at a flight from Bordeaux to New York. Such a flight is, approximately, great circle route and not
allowing for any navigational detours to avoid Allied maritime patrols, 5795 kilometers (3129 nautical miles) one
way, so figure 11,590 km or 6,258 nmi, give or take, round trip. But according to the information I can find, the
range of the Ju 390 was rated as having a maximum range of between 8,000 km (4320 nmi) and 9,700 km (5,238
nmi). My theory on the difference between these two figures is based (1) on counting a safety factor in the lower
number into the higher number, typically calculated as .20 x fuel for range plus fuel for 45 minutes, and (2)
any additional auxiliary fuel tanks which could have been installed. In either case, the 9700 km maximum range
is somewhat fatally short of 11,590 km round trip.

So, that's interesting. Now let's see ... IF the Ju 390 could travel 11,590 km and the rated cruise speed was 347
km/hr, that works out to about 33 hours at cruise which slightly exceeds the 32 hours cited by Green. Further, that
little calculation doesn't begin to address fuel consumption, especially expended climbing to altitude. Don't forget,
also, that the first half mission, from the vicinity of Bordeaux to the vicinity of New York, means bucking headwinds
(or even the jet stream if high enough) most of the way … doesn't exactly do much for the fuel consumption, and
can rob you of an average 20 percent efficiency in the right (or wrong, depending on your point of view) conditions.

The BMW 801 engine, at cruise, as I understand it, burned about 570 liters (150 gallons) of fuel per hour, or for
the 6 engine Ju 390, about 3,420 liters (900 gallons) an hour. For Green's declared 32 hours of flight, not counting
climb out consumption, headwinds, and other such inconvenient vagaries, that's a requirement for some 109,440
liters of fuel. And of course, 109,440 liters of fuel is in the neighborhood of 28,795 gallons (US), which would
weigh about 215,000 pounds.

But wait ... empty weight of the Ju 390 was 36,900 kilograms (81,350 pounds) and the fully loaded weight was
75,500 kilograms (166,448 pounds); and I presume that includes POL, crew and ancillary equipment.

So, figure: 166,448 pounds rated max weight versus 215,000 pounds in fuel, equals: 48,552 pounds over weight.
How do you suppose they got all that off the ground? Was there really a crew with enough gonads to attempt to
takeoff at almost 30% over rated weight limits? All in fuel? With the only one of the aircraft type in
existence? For some sort of navigational stunt?

And to pull off their stunt they're going to fly into a hostile coastal area that had near it some of the enemy's
more important aircraft production facilities, Grumman comes to mind, that had radar coverage and they're not
going to be detected? Maybe, but only if they run the last hundred miles or so, in and out, at about 150 feet (that
would do wonders for their fuel consumption, wouldn't it). And if you strip out defensive armament, cut crew size,
remove any armor, and self-sealing tanks, all in the name of weight savings (not that such could come close
to accounting for all the 48,552 over weight pounds), what happens when you just happen to run into a patrolling
PB4Y loaded for bear? PB4Ys knocked down about 343 Japanese planes, included 95 twin and multi engine types,
and five German planes (a Do 217, an He 177, and three Ju 88's). One PB4Y would be perfectly capable of chasing
down and ruining a stripped down Ju 390's day. Are you willing to take that chance for what is essentially a one
time stunt?

Then there's the small matter of geography. Look at a map. The New York coastline runs roughly from ENE to
WSW. "North" of New York, city or state, is over land. Jeez, you think if they managed to get some 510 nmi (half
the distance in the above maximum range variance) beyond their rated roundtrip range and ended up somewhere
west of Long Island Sound it would make a much better story. If they took pictures of the coast, they would have
had to turn around to do so.

And what about Reichs Marshall Fatty or Herr Goebbels? Don't you think they would trumpet such a feat to the
all the world? Yet, there is no record of such a propaganda coup.

Also, remember, there were only two of these airplanes, V1 and V2. According to "Die großen Dessauer.
Junkers Ju 89, 90, 290, 390. Die Geschichte einer Flugzeugfamilie" ("The Big Ones from Dessau. ... History
of an aircraft family") by Karl Kössler and Günter Ott, during the time period of this feat was supposedly
accomplished, the lone Ju 390 V1 was in Prague, arriving there on November 26th 1943. While at Prague,
V1 was involved with a series of flight tests, flying on Nov. 30th, and Dec. 2nd and 3rd. The flight on the 3rd was
to Merseburg. V1 returned to Prague on Dec. 10th. More flights were made: on 17th, and again on 30th and
31st of December. Still more flights in January 1944, on the 3rd, 5th, 7th, and 8th. From January 17th to the 23rd,
in-flight refueling tests were conducted with a Ju 290. More tests for aerial refueling took place in through
February and March in the Prague area. The preoccupation with flight tests in the December, January, February
and March time period would seem to knock single prototype Ju 390 V1 out of contention for four weeks duty
in FAGr 5 culminating in a side trip to New York..

And the Ju 390 V2? Well, there's some question as to whether or not that particular aircraft was ever actually
completed. If it was, as near as I can find, it would not have been completed before September 1944, s
ometime after the mission in question. Further, FAGr 5 evacuated from Monte de Marsan on August 20, 1944.
So, probably built too late and could not have possibly launched from Monte de Marsan.

With the wrong information even an otherwise reputable historian can make a mistake. Take a look at Eric
Hammel's Pacific Air War Chronology for the TF-38 strike casualties on 28 July 1945. Absolute hogwash. Similar
error appears in Clark Reynold's The Fast Carriers ... could they be feeding each other? Did someone mis-read
information published elsewhere? I have a TF-38 report for the period, it is way, way different than either Hammel's
or Reynolds' writing. Similarly, a recently published book by popular oral history genre writer, Gerald Astor, entitled
Wings of Gold, on the US naval air war in the Pacific devotes whole pages to fabrications from folks claiming to have
been involved in actions they were no where near, performing feats of daring-do that never happened. Checking
facts would have prevented mistakes. Maybe Green should have looked a little deeper.

I'll be the first to admit I'm not the brightest bulb in the chandelier, so maybe someone else ought to run the
numbers and see how they come out. I'm willing to be wrong, but I just don't see how this flight could have
happened the way it is described. Nor does the historical record bear it out. I'd suggest that there may have
been a plan to try to see how close they could get. A plan with a lot of wishful thinking involved (not unusual
for some of those folks, especially as events became more and more unpleasant and more and more desperate
for them) that never got off the ground when the rational thinkers on the pointy end of the stick looked at it.

Regards,

Rich

 

[evangilder]

Excellent analysis, Rich.

 

[Gnomey]

Excellent analysis, Rich.

Agreed

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Yep - it don't add up. One thought - if this was done the crew could of reached a calculated altitude and shut down 2 of the engines, but it still don't explain the 30% over-gross take off situation. I think the whole this is a myth!

 

[Erich]

as I have been saying for I do not know how many years, FAGr 5 was not involved and the operation did not take place, the two staffeln 1 and 2 did not have time nor really the means to put such an operation together as they were too busy taking over for KG 40's Kondors over the Atlantic.

Rich I must agree with your statements as it makes literal sense, not to mention the radar aerial fittings and the weight of equipment plus an extra crew member to operate the FuG 200 radar set thus reducing again the spped of a big overtaxed machine

E

 

[R Leonard]

On FAGr 5, agreed, Erich. There was a gent, Peter something or other, I don't remember, who researched FAGr 5 operations in laborious depth and at one point had a web site. I ran across it once years ago and thought it interesting, but, as you guys know I tend to stick to the Pacific, so I didn't bookmark it and now can't find it. So, anecdotally, as I recall he came down firmly on the "Never Happened" side of the issue.

Regards,

Rich

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I have explained all this already hartmann. The Ju-390 was not intended to drop a nuclear bomb. Please read all the info that I have posted. The Ju-390 was a heavy transport derived from the Ju-290. When the topic came up about a heavy bomber the Ju-390 was decided as a possible aircraft to modify into a heavy bomber. When the whole Amerika bombing thing came up it was a consideration to use the Ju-390.

As for the He-177 as I said it was already thrown out of the picture from the very beginning. It did not have the range to reach the United States therefore the Ju-390 was decided as a possibitlity.

Please get the 2 books that I told you about up there hartmann they will explain a lot. Dont get all your information off of the internet, most of it is not true.

 

[Erich]

looking through too many google searaches on the Ju 390 and the supposed Amerika bombing or recon incident, Wikpedia in all their glory seems to tak a grat big (?) look at this. wonder whom their so-called experts are that they quote stating it could or did not happen... ?

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Agreed there Erich. While it is an interesting what if. It did not happen. The only really long range flight that happened and is recorded was one to Japan. The Japanese though quickly halted these flights because they feared that the Soviets would declare war on them.