WWII MISTERIES: What happened with the JU390?

[JEANBatten]

Why was the nuke too late? (I am not very convinced about this, but I have started to research about the statements ) In recent investigations, It seems that Germany could have succesfully detonated a nuke near Ohrdruf on March 4 of 1945 (some, even before in Rügen the 11 October 1944). There has been an very intersting debate in a BBC special program sometime before concerning the author of the book and his theories (Rainer Karlsch, Book = Hitlers bombe). even there are some scientist taking samples of the soil to corroborate the possible theory. I don´t know if this is a new revisionist point of view, but... it´s very intersting to speculate about this. It may be the nuke to be carried by the Ju 390, or by the He 177 V38 to New York.
Just my two cents (of Euro, hehehe 8) )

Germany had a functional low yield (ie 1kt) warhead developed by Schumann & Trinks test blasted on the Bug Peninsula, Rugen in October 1944. Later in American captivity, Goering boasted this was a 5kg warhead -entirely feasible with Lithium deuteride boosted fission techniques.


The HE177 V38 was I believe intended to carry a 4 tonne A-bomb like Hiroshima's Little Boy which some sources maintain was the same bomb captured near Goslar
[ source: Dirk Finkemeier who is on Facebook]

 

[JEANBatten]

KG200 used a lot of there heavy transports with civilian Lufthansa marking for secret flights to Spain and so forth.

The aircraft which you refer to were Ju290 A-9, not Ju390, 290s converted as A-9 version with MTOW raised from 41.3 tons to 45 ton and yes they did fly spies &/or guns to White Russian separatists in Soviet rear areas.

Ju290 A9 long range version

Once converted they were given civil registrations to operate as Duetsche Luft Hansa DLH airliners on cargo flights, however T9+UK was also photographed in Russia wearing stkz codes: Known A-9 stkz codes were: T9+UK, T9+VK & T9+WK IT is known these aircraft were flown deep into Soviet rear areas with arms & ammunition for Soviet separatist groups. one T9+UK, was caught on the ground by NKVD troops whilst anotherT9+VK was badly shot up by Soviet Hurricanes on a return flight.

These modifications began with three aircraft:

T9 + FK WNr. J900153 Ju290 V4 Lost from Sarabus 1943 shot down by Soviet Hurricanes
T9 + UK WNr. J900182Feb-Jun 44, Captured by NKVD raid on landing behind Russian lines
T9 + VK WNr. J900183Feb-Apr 44, scrapped

Trial flights began in 1942 with Ju-290A-5 werke # J900170, Luftwaffe stkz code KR+LA. This aircraft earlier also wore KG200 codes 9V+DH. It was destroyed by air raids at Reichlin in 1945. It's fuel capacity was increased by 5,140 litres.for long range operation from Ju-290's standard tankage

In March 1944 three other Ju290 aircraft were transferred to Versuchsverband OKL then they were stripped of all weaponry and civilianised by DLH engineering for Deutsch Luft Hansa (DLH) service on flights to China, Spain, or the Kuril islands . Modification included fitting fuel tanks for 23,800 litres. Each of the aircraft also then received civil registrations. eg D-AITR ( D-AITR piloted by Captain Sluzalek crashed landing in fog on the night of 5/6 April 1945 running off the runway into a drainage ditch. Amid diplomatic protests the next morning a repair crew replaced a damaged tailwheel. It was flown back to Germany after repairs. This was not the same aircraft J900178 adopted by Spain after the war.

Manchuria flights

Pre war explorer Hans Bertram was commissioned by RLM apparently in July 1944 to write a report called Ostasienflug (east Asian Flight Project) to plan for a regular courier service to Tokyo using the Me-264.The mission called for a duration of 33 hours flown at 188 knots. Two routes were proposed. The longest from Berlin to Linz, Hungary, Roumania, Turkey, Iran, Afghanistan, Tsitsihar in china and finally to Tokyo. The other route proposed was through northern India and Burma to Rangoon. Ultimately, these flights may not have reached Manchuria, but that was an objective proposed by Bertram.

A War Ministry report (AIR 40/203) detailed in mid October 1944, a POW gave information under interrogation that since the beginning of 1944, there had been "regular air travel between Germany and Japan established for the transport of high officials flown by old experienced Hansa pilots."

Luftwaffe Generalmajor Fritz Morzik, Chief of Air Transport for the Armed Forces in WW2 Germany wrote in an article for an official post war USAF study paper, in which he said that the Ju-390 was used for courier flights to Japan during the war.

A Post war US Navy Intelligence report drafted for the War Department, entitled "NA/HW 13/47 - German Technical Aid to Japan" dated 31 August 1945 at pages 134-145, discussed how three Messerschmitt engineers with technical documents for Japanese construction of the Me-209; Me 309; Me 264, Me 262; Me 410 and me 323 would be flown to Japan. Technical drawings were accompanied by engineers. The same report listed German engineers captured in Germany after hostilities ceased.

To accomplish this three Ju290 aircraft were withdrawn from military units, upgraded with 5140 L extra fuel capacity and more powerful engines to lift increased weight at take off. A standard Ju290A-5 aircraft had a range of 3,821 sm. further aircraft were converted after the first three.
.
Decrypted Magic signals revealed plans for flights to operate long range flights to Parumashiro in the Kurils: A Magic decrypt of a diplomatic signal from the naval attache at the Japanese embassy in Berlin dated 21st March discussed an impending flight to Japan within the week, which Albert Speer claimed was a Ju390 flight that occurred on 28 March 1945. One decrypted signal mentions a flight to Petsamo in the northern Kurils. More likely in my view was a flight to the ice free and fog free island of Matsawa Jima, whose airstrip is still populated with Nazi fuel drums.

Junkers test pilots who flew these flights are now deceased: In April 1983, Flugkapitän Erich Warsitz suffered a stroke and as a result died at the age of 76 years 12 July 1983 at Barbengo Switzerland; Hermann (aka Henry, aka Ivan) Quenzler was recruited after the war as a test pilot for Lockheed's CIA Skunk Works. He later went to Seattle and worked there for Boeing on the Boeing 707 and SST. He died in 9th September 2002




Ju290 A-9 aircraft

These three converted aircraft were Ju-290A-9 werke # J900183, former Luftwaffe code KR+LN. From February 1944 this aircraft became T9+VK. It was attacked on the ground at Finsterwalde in April 1944 and scrapped at Travenmunde in September 1944.

Also Ju-290A-9 werke # J900182, former LuftwaffeJu 290 A-5 code KR+LM. From February 1944 this aircraft later became T9+UK. This aircraft was destroyed on the ground refueling due to to straffing fire by four Soviet flown Hurricanes near the village of Utta, near Astrakhan in July 1944. DD.11.1943 (Ju 290 A-5)


Ju-290 A7 werke # J900185, former Luftwaffe code KR+LP was the third conversion to become T9+WK. Later in it's career it was attacked over the southern eastern front in May 1944 and returned from the mission beyond all hope of repair.*


All Ju290 swappedtheir Stkz fuselage codes incestuously, therefore individual aircraft can only be traced by their constructor numbers:

J900178, Ju290 A5/A9
Luftwaffe, KR+LI (later 9V+EK), Feb. 44 to Sep.44
to DLH Lufthansa, D-AITR, Okt. 44 to Apr.45, named 'Bayern', damaged on landing at Barcelona
Spanish Air force, 74+23, Apr. 50 to Jul.56, named ' ', wfu in 05.53, later scrapped
J900179, Ju290 A5/A9
Luftwaffe, KR+LJ (later A3+FK, 9V+FK), Jan. 44 to Feb.44, handed over to USAAF and scrapped
J900180, Ju290 A5/A9
Luftwaffe, KR+LK (later 9V+KH), Mrz. 44 to Apr.45, destroyed during air raid at Rechlin
J900181, Ju290 A7/A9
Luftwaffe, KR+LL (later 9V+GK), Apr. 44 to Aug.44, destroyed during air raid at Dessau
J900182, Ju290 A7/A9
Luftwaffe, KR+LM (later T9+UK, A3+AB), Feb. 44 to Jun.44, lost on secret mission at Russian Front
J900183, Ju290 A7/A9
Luftwaffe, KR+LN (later T9+VK, A3+BB), Feb. 44 to Apr.44, claimed damaged during air raid at Finsterwalde [actually damaged Utta Astrakhan] , scrapped at Travemunde constructive total loss
J900185, Ju290 A7/A6/ Le.290 Orel Adolf Hitler's personal aircraft completed as airliner postwar

 

[Propellorhead]

Fro what I've read, a He177 was discovered in Berlin, adapted to drop nukes

yes, but you refer to the He-177 V38 prototype stkz KM+TB, found at Prague with a bomb bay enlarged for a nuclear bomb, unlikely to have had either trans Atlantic range, nor the altitude performance to drop the bomb over Britain by 1945. However the aircraft did exist and itwas modified with an enlarged bomb bay

 

[Propellorhead]

I had heard some 5 years ago from a German contact who was friends with several survivng members of FAGR 5, that the vets themselves were writing the history of their Gruppe. I wish them a huge success becuase once it is written we will then be able to put the New York flight story to rest and find out about other very stealth operations the gruppe was involved in besides their prime mission of suporting the Kriegsmarine U-boot arm.

did you know the unit flew recon ops in the Arado 234 towards wars end in the spring of 1945. so as many books have said that FAGr 5 was dissolved and obsorbed by KG 200 and disbanded this is not quite true

E

Negative, you propose a Strawman hypothesis which is a complete fallacy of inverted logic. If there was a New York flight, Then that is not ptoof that the flight was flown by FAGr 5. The fact such a flight was not flown by FAGr 5, is not proof said flight did not take place. the US Ninth Air Force, A.P.W.I.U. Report 44/1945 which described the New York flight never mentioned FAGr 5 performing the NY flight. A War Ministry report (AIR 40/203) cites a POW interrogation that long range Ju390 flights to Japan were performed by a special unit comprised of civilian test pilots called Japan Kommando, or Kommando Nebel.

 

[Propellorhead]

problem is and we have all discussed this.............too much of the internet is taken as fact with no questions asked. Find some good resource materials like books and esepcially for the a/c in this thread, German language. R.Leonard mentioned Dr. Kössler/Ott's famous and OOP book on the subject matter and there are a couple others on the air recon war over the Atlantic, sadly way too few though ...........

Kössler/Ott are not the final word on the JU390 either, having modified their position to suggest the Ju390 was not until June 1944.

The Ju390 was first photographed attacking convoy KMF-5 in December 1942!
Merchant seaman Ron Whylie of Mosman, NSW, took this photo in 1942

 

[FLYBOYJ]

yes, but you refer to the He-177 V38 prototype stkz KM+TB, found at Prague with a bomb bay enlarged for a nuclear bomb, unlikely to have had either trans Atlantic range, nor the altitude performance to drop the bomb over Britain by 1945. However the aircraft did exist and itwas modified with an enlarged bomb bay

Just so you know that post was from 16 years ago and that member hasn't been on here for quite a long time

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Kössler/Ott are not the final word on the JU390 either, having modified their position to suggest the Ju390 was not until June 1944.

The Ju390 was first photographed attacking convoy KMF-5 in December 1942!
Merchant seaman Ron Whylie of Mosman, NSW, took this photo in 1942

Again a post from 2005. FYI Junkers Ju-390 - German Aircraft

 

[Propellorhead]

Yep - it don't add up. One thought - if this was done the crew could of reached a calculated altitude and shut down 2 of the engines, but it still don't explain the 30% over-gross take off situation. I think the whole this is a myth!

The Ju390 was certified at a take off weight of 75,500kg with an 8,000km range. According to JU390 test pilot Hans Joachim Pancherz, the aircraft was put through an OEW weight reduction program in May 1944 and re-certified at an MTOW of 80,500kg with a range of 11,000km.
A US April 1945 report on bench testing of the BMW 801D2 engines by NACA, forerunner of the agency now known as NASA provides me with an accurate estimate of fuel consumption for the Ju390:


Early flights by the Ju-390 used BMW 801D engines. The BMW 801E engine was an experimental engine often mentioned as being fitted to the Ju-390. It was in fact intended for the Export aircraft planned for production by Japan. The BMW 801E had modified gearing on the supercharger to give better fuel consumption and an extra 100hp at altitude. High altitude flight above 21,000ft destroyed the Ju390's LR performance.

Page 29 of that NACA report discloses an individual engine on lean settings below 21,000 feet altitude consumes either:

• 250 L/hr (40.83 US Gal/hr) at 1600rpm (1469.9lb/hr for six engines), or
• 275 L/hr (45.83 US Gal/hr) at 1800rpm (1649.9lb/hr for six engines)

best performance was to fly at 6,330ft altitude and 1770 rpm

 

[Juha3]

Kössler/Ott are not the final word on the JU390 either, having modified their position to suggest the Ju390 was not until June 1944.

The Ju390 was first photographed attacking convoy KMF-5 in December 1942!
Merchant seaman Ron Whylie of Mosman, NSW, took this photo in 1942

By what weapons, a photo of an unarmed proto which according to other sources made its first flight on 20 Oct 1943. Look at the picture, no bomb bay, no bomb shackles no guns. Even if the plane had existed in December 1942, why would it have flown so close to the ships of an escorted convoy that an ordinary sailor would have been able to take that picture? It would have been a pretty easy target for AA guns.

 

[Capt. Vick]

That's because it's not true.

 

[GrauGeist]

Ju390V1 first flew at Dessau on 20 October '43 - not sure how it was photographed in December of 1942.

 

[SaparotRob]

High speed film?

 

[BiffF15]

Or time traveling pictures…

 

[Propellorhead]

The testing of exotic weapons at the one site in Czechoslovakia where the He 177 V38 was tested could be the reason why many older publications claimed that the He 177 V38 was intended to be a prototype "atomic bomber". However, many aviation historians now say that the He 177 V38 was to test the enlarged bomb bay intended for the production Ju 287 FSW bomber.

If you are going to tell the story at least tell it correctly please?
THE only connection between the Ju287 and V38 is that the Ju287 has a bomb bay with dimensions identical to that of the V38.
Given that we know of no German Bomb late in the war requiring such dimensions, the floor is open to anyone who can explain why both

Meantime now that it is declassified, some may with to obtain & read this:
Practical Use of the German Atomic Bomb," A.P.I.U. (Ninth Air Force) 96/1945 APO 696, U S Army, 19 August 1945.

 

[GrauGeist]

If you are going to tell the story at least tell it correctly please?

Does this also include the Ju390 being photographed in flight almost a year before it actually flew?

And does this also include the bit about the Ju390 allegedly flying to Japan?

 

[Propellorhead]

That's because it's not true.

What Proof have you got. Just an overblown opinion, it seems?
You don't have a right to believe whatever you want to, just because his evidence clashes with your beliefs...
If you assert This elderly WW2 veteran is lying merely because you refuse to believe his first hand witness account and his photo then your opinion is the first refuge of the wilfully ignorant, of a person who when cornered by mounting evidence feels entitled to shamefully accuse another person presenting evidence of being a liar.

You are granting yourself license to insult and abuse anybody you disagree with because youtr opinion matters more than the facts.
Ron, Born in 1921, was quite a humble gentleman who posted many previously unpublished photos of the attack on CONVOY KMF-5, were you there in 1942?.

What gives you the right to rubbish this man's photos, published respectfully for Ron by his seafarers union?
I spoke with Ron in 2008 to try and verify how the photo was taken and who took the picture?
He assured me that he took all the photos in his blog and granted me his blessings to publish them. He had no clue the huge German aircraft was a Ju390 This gentleman thought he was performing a service to posterity by sharing his war experience for others to learn from
Sadly , I should have warned Ron before he died that he was merely casting pearls before swine.
At least he died believing he was doing the right thing. I am so glad he never met you.
One thing I know without doubt, He was a better person than you.

Ron's recollections

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Everyone needs to cool off. Knock it off with the snide comments and insults. It will not be tolerated. Debate in a civil manner, or not at all. That goes for everyone.

 

[Capt. Vick]

Wow...a lot to unpack there. Usually people have to meet me before they form that kind of opinion about me. But be that as it may, I will consider it a challenge to pick apart your outlandish claim regarding the Ju 390. I hope when the dust has finally settled, one of us will be open to changing their belief. Though at this early stage in our interaction I am beginning to think that your not much of a fact based kind of guy. I could be wrong, but I will give it a go regardless.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Kössler/Ott are not the final word on the JU390 either, having modified their position to suggest the Ju390 was not until June 1944.

The Ju390 was first photographed attacking convoy KMF-5 in December 1942!
Merchant seaman Ron Whylie of Mosman, NSW, took this photo in 1942

All sources I've seen show the first flight of the Ju390 20 October 1943. This is from wiki, I'm leaving the article's references in. Bold type is mine

The Ju 390 V1 was constructed and largely assembled at Junkers' plant at Dessau in Germany and the first test flight took place on 20 October 1943.[3]​ This was done by adding an additional wing section and powerplants and adding a fuselage section immediately aft of the wings to increase the length to 31 m (102 ft). Its performance was satisfactory enough that the Air Ministry ordered 26 in addition to the two prototypes. On 29 June 1944, the Luftwaffe Quartermaster General noted that the RLM paid Junkers to complete seven Ju-390 aircraft.[4]​ The contracts for 26 Ju 390s were cancelled on 20 June 1944 and all work ceased in September 1944. On 26 November 1943, the Ju 390 V1—with many other new aircraft and prototypes—was shown to Adolf Hitler at Insterburg, East Prussia.[5]​ According to the logbook of former Junkers test pilot Hans-Joachim Pancherz, the Ju 390 V1 was brought to Prague immediately after it had been displayed at Insterburg and took part in a number of test flights, which continued until March 1944, including tests of inflight refueling.[6]​ The Ju 390 V1 was returned to Dessau in November 1944, where it was stripped of parts and finally destroyed in late April 1945 as the US Army approached.

Different sources present different accounts of the history of the Ju 390 V2. Kössler and Ott (1993) stated that the Ju 390 V2 was completed during June 1944, with flight tests beginning in late September 1944.[6]​ The second prototype (Ju 390 V2) was configured for a maritime reconnaissance role, and its fuselage had been extended by 2.5 m (8.2 ft) for a total of length of 33.5 m (110 ft) and it was said to be equipped with FuG 200 Hohentwiel ASV (Air to Surface Vessel) radar and defensive armament consisting of five 20 mm MG 151/20 cannon.[7]​ Green (1970) wrote that the armament was four 20 mm MG 151/20s and three 13 mm (.51 in) MG 131 machine guns. At a hearing before British authorities on 26 September 1945, Professor Heinrich Hertel, chief designer and technical director of Junkers Aircraft & Motor Works, asserted the Ju-390 V2 had never been completed.[8]​ German author Friedrich Georg claimed in his book that test pilot Oberleutnant Joachim Eisermann recorded in his logbook that he flew the V2 prototype (RC+DA) on 9 February 1945 at Rechlin air base. The log is said to have recorded a handling flight lasting 50 minutes and composed of circuits around Rechlin, while a second 20-minute flight was used to ferry the prototype to Lärz.[9]​ Kay (2004) stated that the second Ju 390 prototype was discarded without being flown because of a July 1944 RLM decree sanctioning an end to all large combat plane programs in Nazi Germany in favor of the Emergency Fighter Program.[10]​ Pancherz himself stated in 1980 that the only the first Ju 390 flew and cast doubt on all claims of the Ju 390 making a test flight to New York.[11]​

 

[GrauGeist]

Again, the Ju390V1 first flew in October of 1943.

It NEVER saw operational status, meaning it NEVER flew over Allied shipping.