The Basket
Senior Master Sergeant
- 3,712
- Jun 27, 2007
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The choice is between getting shot right now and for certain or maybe getting shot later by the enemy. Its a simple choice and self preservation prevails - ever wondered why people who fell to atrocities dug their graves even when they knew exactly what was coming for them..?
When war is on, fighting is NOT optional IMHO, its a civic duty of the individual to the whole community since immemorial times, to his best abilities.
That is actually how it was in Germany. At 18 you had to serve in some capacity. Either military, ambulance driver, old age home, etc...
Dont agree with that. How can an undemocratic figure head like the Queen save democracy?
Just referring to the USA and its governing system.
Mass armies with vast numbers of vbbadly trained men, mostly poor shots and hugely vulnerable targets is really an obsolete concept in modern warfare. The Germans spearheaded this concept in the last war, the idea of super trained, super motivated and super equipped men able to hold back vastly more numerous, but less efficient opponents. The germans failed in the finish, but not because the concept was faulty. they failed for other reasons.
That's fine...I was just thinking that, in the context of this discussion, the US should take a much greater interest in how the armed forces of allied nations are organized. If the US wants the rest of the world to shoulder more of the burden of international peacemaking/keeping, then it's in America's interest that the countries who seek to support that agenda are capable of doing so. The last thing you want is a situation where American lives are threatened because weak allies can't adequately complete their missions. There's no point the US deploying world-beating force if allies on the flanks aren't doing their jobs properly because the soldiers of that allied nation are conscripts and hence less likely to undertake robust patrolling action. We saw hints of that sort of thing during NATO's engagement in the Balkans and it wouldn't surprise me at all to learn that similar issues are encountered in Afghanistan today.
Maybe, when its a war against a power directly threatening your own state.
But what about the Vietnam War for the French or Americans? Or Iraq and Afghanistan? Or the Malay conflicts?
Do those wars imply the same "civic duty"?
There is a subtle difference creeping in here...the difference between volunteer citizen armies and conscript citizen armies on the one hand, and professional standing armies on the other. The two issues are quite distinct and quite different to each other.
Mass armies arose from the times of Napoleon and continued through to 1945 (in the west....elsewhere they continue to this day. in fact national service continued for some soome time after 1945, but for convenience, it appropriate to claim the death of the mass conscript citizen army in 1945). WWII in fact showed up significant weaknes in relying on the citizen army. It inherently is less well trained and less technically proficient than a standing professional army. In todays military, you can spend a million dollars just to get your lowly Infantryman kitted up, trained and into battle. That man is a killing machine, vastly more powerful and valuable than the millions strong mass armies that characterised WWI and WWII. Mass armies with vast numbers of vbbadly trained men, mostly poor shots and hugely vulnerable targets is really an obsolete concept in modern warfare. The Germans spearheaded this concept in the last war, the idea of super trained, super motivated and super equipped men able to hold back vastly more numerous, but less efficient opponents. The germans failed in the finish, but not because the concept was faulty. they failed for other reasons.
If you are going to use a few highly traied men in place of a vast mass citizen based army, you want those guys to be as motivated as you can. There is no evidence to support that Conscripts wont fight (fighting is mostly a function of survival, not a function of motivation). The volunteers are more inlcined to be positive on entry, and this makes them more "trainable". Volunteers tend to have greater cameraderie, and this makes them, as a group more dependable and resilient. But the difference between colunteers and conscripts is not the same question as the difference between a professional careeer army and a mass citizen based army.
Pars, as usual, you provide a well thought out and articulate analysis of a complex topic.
I am curious to know your thoughts on the Swiss or Israeli model, which AFAIK, is based on compulsory military training for virtually all able bodied male citizens, facilitated by a small professional core?
With our volunteer military, many citizens can go from cradle to grave and never participate in any activity that provides them a sense of national community or their place in it.
In fact many choose just such a life. I think what I am trying to say is that a citizen's participation in the countries military (or any community-oriented activity that involves some sacrifice of self for a greater good) pays dividends in enhancing societal integration that may balance its poorer efficiency on the battlefield.
.For the USA, an example of the benefits to the society of compulsory service might be the case of race. It seems likely that race relations in this country would have had a very different trajectory had the military remained integrated in the early twentieth century during the WWI draft. In other words, a citizen-military seems to provide both external and internal benefits. Ideally, it could or should act as a bulwark against national adventurism. Here I am blurring the very distinction you pointed out, to make the point that, a military is a very political entity and perhaps should be viewed in the context of its place in society beyond it's efficiency in battle. As Clauswitz said, "war is simply the continuation of politics by other means." Just throwing this out because I think it may underly much of the discussion here which is admittedly way off the topic
Pars, as usual, you provide a well thought out and articulate analysis of a complex topic.
I am curious to know your thoughts on the Swiss or Israeli model, which AFAIK, is based on compulsory military training for virtually all able bodied male citizens, facilitated by a small professional core?
That's fine...I was just thinking that, in the context of this discussion, the US should take a much greater interest in how the armed forces of allied nations are organized. If the US wants the rest of the world to shoulder more of the burden of international peacemaking/keeping, then it's in America's interest that the countries who seek to support that agenda are capable of doing so. The last thing you want is a situation where American lives are threatened because weak allies can't adequately complete their missions. There's no point the US deploying world-beating force if allies on the flanks aren't doing their jobs properly because the soldiers of that allied nation are conscripts and hence less likely to undertake robust patrolling action. We saw hints of that sort of thing during NATO's engagement in the Balkans and it wouldn't surprise me at all to learn that similar issues are encountered in Afghanistan today.
As a citizen of New Zealand, I'm proud of that country's history of doing quirky things like banning nuclear weapons, even at the cost of a hand in glove relationship with the USA. I recall that when that happened the USA accepted the decision in good faith and there was an honest parting of the ways while Australia, as a reflection of shared history, continued the close relationship with their ANZAC mates. There is room for compromise and differing opinions in international relations between mature nations.
Incidentally, how long has it been since anyone mentioned anything to do with aircraft?
Incidentally, how long has it been since anyone mentioned anything to do with aircraft?
Again nothing to do with shirkers and defectors but at least something to do with aircraft this time. I once heard a story that a group of British workman were spotted by a German recon plane in the North of England building some kind of wooden dummy invasion structure, the next day the German recon plane returned and this time dropped a wooden bomb!