WWII submarines...which was the better one?

For once Soren, we almost agree. Japanese cars tend to be the best for the money although not necessarily in pickups. I won't list them all but first German, all new, was 72 280 SE 4.5, did not get home with it as cam shaft broke. Next was 73 450 SL, tranny went out in 36000 miles. Probably ten M-Bs, four Porsches(928s), one BMW, three or four Audis, the last was a 2000 A6 2.7T, had good AC but service manager told me don't let it get out of warranty, 50000 miles. Sold it at 49000 mile. It was the only one with decent AC. The rest of them were lousy. Don't make me laugh about Germans knowing about AC in cars.

renrich said:

For once Soren, we almost agree. Japanese cars tend to be the best for the money although not necessarily in pickups. I won't list them all but first German, all new, was 72 280 SE 4.5, did not get home with it as cam shaft broke. Next was 73 450 SL, tranny went out in 36000 miles. Probably ten M-Bs, four Porsches(928s), one BMW, three or four Audis, the last was a 2000 A6 2.7T, had good AC but service manager told me don't let it get out of warranty, 50000 miles. Sold it at 49000 mile. It was the only one with decent AC. The rest of them were lousy. Don't make me laugh about Germans knowing about AC in cars.

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Wow you have had bad luck with your cars. If you were talking about BMW I would have agreed with you because even the Germans call it the Bayrische Mist Wagen (Bavarian **** Car ).

But since you are talking about Mercedes here I find that rather hard to believe. Mercedes (atleast the ones built in Germany here) are quality. Very expensive but quality. Other than Jeep that is all my family has ever owned.

In our family right now there is a 55 (not sure on the model though) and it is all original parts and still purs like a kitten, a 03 C 230, a 06 SLK Kompresser, and a 07 E 330. All run great.

As for the AC you are correct, most Germans dont have AC in there cars because it is not needed here on a normal given year. Just roll the window down and you are good to go.

Chris, the 10 or so MBs I owned were from 72 to 82, I think. They were all new, one was a diesel and I probably had less trouble with it than any. But you are so right as what passes for AC in Germany just won't cut it in Texas. The only German auto I owned that had good AC was the 2000 or 2001(can't remember which) Audi but it had other problems, electrical and the 2.7 twin turbo gave trouble and were very expensive to work on. I had built a couple of houses for a Porsche dealer and we were friends when I had the several 928s. They were good road cars(the fastest I ever drove was in one, 146 mph) but even with dual AC they wouldn't keep you cool in Texas. He said the only Porsche with good AC was the 924(made by Audi) and that only because it was added on in Houston and was a Jap AC.

Excuse me Renrich, but a question come natural: why did you buy that impressive row of expensive cars if you were never happy with them?
I mean, in that price range there is plenty of alternatives !

Good question! During those times there were a lot of problems with emission controls that caused cars to have engine issues. Fuel injection alleviated a lot of those problems and the German cars had fuel injection. In 1982 I bought my first rice burner, a Toyota Celica Supra. It had a 3 litre overhead cams straight six. I had a 928 also and when I compared the cars and prices. around 15000 dollars for the Toyota and around 50000 dollors for the Porsche, I began to see the light. Basically though when I had all those expensive German cars (my wife drove them also) it was a case of having more money than sense. Now that I have more judgment than money, I have two rice burners, a 2004 Infiniti FX45 with 65000 miles that drives like new and a Honda Ridgeline which is "not much for pretty but hail for stout" I slipped once with the 2001 Audi but it "broke me from suckin eggs" and I plan on sticking with my rice burners.

Guys, buy VolksWagen, it works!

Renrich,

Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Porsche VolksWagen are all high quality car manufactures and always have been.

BMW produces allot of great cars, but they're expensive. The same goes with Mercedes, Audi VolksWagen, but Porsche beats them all in terms of prices.

The 911 is definitely Porsche's best car, always have been and still is, though they today produce the Cayman etc etc..

Mercedes, well what can I say, quality quality quality and quality, that's all this manufacturer is about. They build a number of sports cars as-well, including the SLR.

VolksWagen builds high quality family cars with lots of performance nice features, and then they last! However VolksWagen also builds sports cars, including the most expensive in the world! VolksWagen fully designed built the fastest production road car in the world to date, the Bugatti Veyron with its 1001 HP W-engine(Derived from the VW Nardo). However keeping with tradition they kept the original Bugatti production factory in France.




As for the AC systems, no not many Germans cas have them, they have Climatic control instead which is way better. Many Japanese acrs have this as-well, but you also get more for every buck you spend with Japanese cars.

Soren,

As i seem to recall i was the one who first commented about this guy, Clay Blair and his cumbersome book.

A massive two-volume book that in my view resulted in some of the strangest works i have come across with regard to WW2.

It is an excellent source of information for it features detailed summaries of U-boats (production programs/commissioned/loss date, etc.), U-boat commanders, Allied merchant ship production and several vivid descriptions of important U-boat action against allied convoys in the Atlantic.

On the other hand the book is an extraordinary case of bias against Germany and the Germans; the bias is so strong one could have a hard time determining whether the author was acting only under the influence of a strong bias or walked toward the domain of a hatred for the Germans.

If referring to the Eastern Front, then i´d say Omer Bertov´s "The Eastern Front: 1941-45: German troops and the barbarization of warfare" is the paralel of Blair´s approach to naval warfare.

There are episodes when Blair´s work became pornography -thank you, but not into it-, when he makes fun of U-boat crews "weeping", or "begging" for rescue to allied escorts after having abandoned their sub...allied crews on destroyers or corvettes commenced "discovering the Germans were not super men..." On another related episode i recall, he seemed to have loved describing how a number of "weeping" U-boat crews that just abandoned the sub were chopped off by the propellers of allied escorts.

His effort to downplay absolutely everything that is German: the quality of their submarines and weapons, and also the seamanship of U-boat skippers and crews was a clear obssession from the very outset of the book.

Clair´s book could all too well have been otherwise titled: "Myth Breaker" perhaps; he had an obssession with a vast set of "myths" shrouding the German U-boat weapon: their submarines were "not the best", their commanders were not professional highly skilled sea men, rather "civilian volunteers" and a long etcetera.

What you should really consider here Renrich is that if such noticeable bias did not influence the author´s reasoning with regard to technical specifications of the Uboats.

That specific part of "sections of the XXI type not properly fitting together during assembly" was something like Blair´s epitome of sillyness. First, if you read that same section -not included on the quote-, he referred to the fact of fabricating the major hull sections in different factories as a sign of Germany´s desperate condition, poor production planning and -of course- poor quality; after reading Blair´s opus, i was advised fabricating hull sections in different plants or factories was not rare AT ALL in the U.S. or Great Britain; Blair, and this is the significant point, simply ommitted any sources with regard to the alleged "zero experience" such factories had with regard to submarine building. Given the biased nature of the author is that one can at minimum doubt the veracity of the statement.

Koeniggsegg has more bhp than Veyron AND weighs LESS as well....it's also green. 8) It cost as I've heard £1.1million!

At 7200rpm it cranks out 1018 hp and 720lb/ft torque 6100rpm....not bad for a car that weigh less than a modern Mini....







Well, back to topic...

Soren, neither VW or MB have a good reputation for reliability here in the US. My experience with the German autos listed although outdated except for the one Audi is that they are far from trouble free, possibly because they are over engineered. Over the years I have had far less trouble with Japanese autos than with Germans. My opinion is that when a German auto has everything working right, they are sweet machines(except for the AC) but the problem is that often everything does not work right consistently and they are very expensive to work on. The first 928 I ordered was in, I think, 1978, when they first hit the US. It was white but a copper brown metallic came in first, I took it and a friend took the white one a few weeks later. Incidently he was with EDS, one of the founders and did much of the planning when EDS got their people out of Iran. At any rate in a few months the tranny on his car cratered and it was replaced under warranty(after a few weeks to get the tranny over here) The dealer was a friend of mine and he said the dealer cost on the tranny was $5100. This was in 78-79! The sticker on the 928 then was about $36000. I would tell you some of the stories about the factory reps from Porsche and their conversations with the owners of the dealerships in the US but you would be insulted. Udet, I don't have the same impression as you about Blair's books. I do believe he had an agenda which was to prove the U- boat war was not as close run as many historians have portrayed it. But I don't believe he denigrates the bravery, skill and devotion of the majority of the U-boat men at all. There were occasions when U-boat skipper were not as brave as others, some were out right cowards and some went mad. They were humans just like Brits and Americans. Time and time agains he recites battles where the U-boat men fought with skill and outright manaical bravery but also many times with great humanity. Example: the Laconia affair. The US did not act in a chivalrous manner there. Perhaps we just have a differnt perspective about WW2. I know that I seldom am pleased with the viewpoints expressed by historians about the War Between the States. I have one book "Battle Cry of Freedom" by Mc Pherson which is supposedly one of the best in print about our Civil War. It was given to me as a gift by my brother, I got half way through it and refused to read any more because I thought he was so biased toward the Union. In many cases it is not what one says but how it is said.

Renrich,

Again you must have been overly unlucky with your example of cars cause German cars are considered the worlds absolute best quality cars in Europe.

Mercedes Benz is just pure quality, and so is Porsche.

Some have ofcourse had some problems, I particularly remember the BMW 320 series of 2001 having problems with the rim belts breaking, and Audi has recently had problems with their 2004 A6 using way too much oil. These have all been addressed however.

In terms of the reliability of German cars its all great, some of the most reliable in the world, but if you have to name one German car maker as the worst in terms of reliability then it's Audi. Audi is a great car maker but a few of its cars have recently had some teething problems, namely the excessive oil consumption. They seem to have straightened this now though, and the new Audi A6 runs like a dream, a really high quality car no doubt.

Now about Blair, he is VERY biased Renrich, not only does it show in his choice of words but it also clearly shows when he ventures into the technical history of German U-boats where it is made clear that he is in completely unknown territory.

Lucky13 said:

Koeniggsegg has more bhp than Veyron AND weighs LESS as well....it's also green. 8) It cost as I've heard £1.1million!

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The Veyron is faster and costs ~ £2.7 million.

Soren said:

The Veyron is faster and costs ~ £2.7 million.

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£2.7 million!!! bl**dy h*ll.....! Has gone up a bit since I last heard the price on the Veyron...not that I could afford before anyway...

Question though Soren, how can Veryon be faster if it's heavier and less powerful? The Koenigsegg CCR was clocked 245 mph the new CCRX has 200 hp more than the CCR which has 806, thanks to running on bio fuel....

I guess that we'll see in the future though....

Back to the submarine topic, how many subs were sunk by other subs in WWII? Did they ever fight it out, like what's so popular in films...?



£2.7 million.....jeeez!

Lucky,

The reason the Veyron is faster is mainly because the Germans payed more attention to the Aerodynamics, and because of this the Veyron has a confirmed top speed of 414 km/h (258 mph). But the new W engine is also a crucial reason, this new engine produces a lot of torque for the given HP, this allows the Veyron to reach 100 km/h in just 2.5 sec's, compared to the 2.9 sec's of the Koenigsegg CCXR. And on top of this the Veyron has Climatic control, CD player and lots of other extra luxury equipment, completely unlike other sports cars.

Just to demonstrate how powerful the Veyron is, here it is drag racing with the one of quickest accelerating cars in world [Mercedes SLR], piece of cake!
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unRvopGXCgA

Soren, unlucky is when one has one or two or three examples of cars that show poor reliability. When one has ten or fifteen that is not bad luck it is a pattern. Maybe MB and Porsche, VW and BMW are building them better now bur the consumer reports here in the US don't seem to reflect that but perhaps they are biased also.

They might be biased, who knows, but what is for certain is that they're completely different from the European consumer reports.

Food for thought: German cars are allot more expensive in the states than in Europe.

Would love to see the difference in a real drag race start, standing still and with a christmas tree.....
Where will we go from here, eh?

Soren said:

BMW produces allot of great cars, but they're expensive.

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Soren BMW is not that great. There is reason that it is known as the Bayrische Mist Wagen.

Soren said:

Mercedes, well what can I say, quality quality quality and quality, that's all this manufacturer is about. They build a number of sports cars as-well, including the SLR.

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Soren while I agree that Mercedes is quality and allways has been, it really is slipping now and is not the great quality it used to be. You are mostly buying the name now. Trust me I know. My step mothers whole family works for Mercedes (everywhere from upper management in Stuttgart down to the assy. line workers). My direct family recieves a new Mercedes of choice every year and we all drive Mercedes (except for me, I am a Jeep man ).

I mean dont take me wrong. Mercedes is still top quality but it is declining quickly while the price is rising.

Below is a pic of me in the family SLK.

Soren said:

VolksWagen builds high quality family cars with lots of performance nice features, and then they last! However VolksWagen also builds sports cars, including the most expensive in the world! VolksWagen fully designed built the fastest production road car in the world to date, the Bugatti Veyron with its 1001 HP W-engine(Derived from the VW Nardo). However keeping with tradition they kept the original Bugatti production factory in France.

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I will agree that VW is quality.

Soren said:

As for the AC systems, no not many Germans cas have them, they have Climatic control instead which is way better. Many Japanese acrs have this as-well, but you also get more for every buck you spend with Japanese cars.

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No Soren. Most Germans dont have any kind of climate control. They have a heater and fan. There is no need to pay extra for it.

The only cars that really have AC or Climate control are Mercedes and BMW and most Germans can not even afford those.

When I say German cars I mean cars made in Germany, not all the cars driven by Germans.

Climate control is a std. feature in medium class German built cars today. Our new second "extra" car, a Golf TDi, features climatic control and that was std. feature.

PS: I think I know why you don't like BMW, your family being employees with Mercedes Benz and all

BMW is making great quality cars, I've owned driven several, and all I can say is schöne auto!

Ever sat in or driven a M5 or M6 ? Very nice car! (Beyond what I can afford at the moment though )


Nice car btw Adler! The new SLK got top marks in various magazines. Perhaps I'll go try one soon.

Soren said:

PS: I think I know why you don't like BMW, your family being employees with Mercedes Benz and all

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No that has nothing to do with it. That is what BMW is known as. I dont make this up nor did I come up with it.

I like the BMW's look but they are crap quality. The Trans is only good for about 5 years before it needs major work done on it and they do not survive crash's very well.

In the ADAC yearly report they were found to be the least reliable and the least crashworthy of the top german cars.

You should have even seen the BMW that decided to T-Bone my Jeep. Needless to say I drove home that day. The BMW was towed away.

Soren said:

BMW is making great quality cars, I've owned driven several, and all I can say is schöne auto!

Ever sat in or driven a M5 or M6 ? Very nice car! (Beyond what I can afford at the moment though )

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I have driven many BMW.

There is a reason why ADAC rated them lower than Mercedes and VW in there yearly reports. I get the ADAC magazines monthly because I am a ADAC Plus member (which by the way is the best road side service I have ever had and it costs less than 9 Euros a month!).

You should check out the ADAC stuff. BMW is not all that it is made up to be.

Now this should get back on topic however...

Renrich, hello.

I understand very well what you said to me there; there are moments when i feel i´ve just had enough from a book i am reading, but i have never really stopped and will finish reading.

For example, in the case of that freak, Omer Bartov, once i finished reading it, the book went straight into the dustbin. Blair´s book was saved from the same fate due to the very informative annexes it has, plus the several summaries included -that have nothing to do with his bias-.