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I agree with you Parsifal, the Italians should have prepared their fleet better.
The balance of power shifted a number of times due to actions / losses.
The above site has the RN with 4 BBs in the Eastern Med in June 1940 at Alexandria. the Italians had 6 BBs - two being completed.
To offset the Italian land based aircraft the RN had 1 aircraft carrier at Alexandria.
That balance changed in favour of the RN after Taranto on 11 Nov 1940 - 3 BBs sunk at their moorings.
By the end of 1941, Barham had been sunk and Queen Elizabeth and Valiant had been severely damaged (sunk) in Alexandria harbour.
Only by excellent management of this event by the RN and Cunningham in particular prevented the Italians from realizing that they had a significant advantage in BBs.
I was unaware of the fuel supply situation for the Italians - that goes some way to explain their lack of aggression.
I had thought that with their newer designed BBs that they might have fancied their chances against the RNs WW1 designed ships?
Having air superiority in some ares also may have encouraged the Italians to try to draw the RN into chasing them into a trap?
I respectfully disagree with FB that Italian ships were inferior to British ships.
1. Not one single english battleship or cruiser had a radar set at 1940, beginning 1941.
2. The Regia Marina has no oil problem until late 1941!
3. The Regia Marina had a very clear advantage after the surrender of France till Tarent.
4. As I written bevor, if the italians would attack with all their strenghts and all will Malta, at middle August till beginning September 1940, it is a matter of fact, that this will be an Italian victory!
They had 3 airborne battalion action ready at August 1940. They had superioty at battleships and cruisers from August 1940.
The Alpinis, San Marcos and Bersaglieri are equal to every other unit from the english army and the Italian Air Force had totaly air supermarcy at August 1940.
CR.32: 69
CR.42: 120
C.200: 64
G.50: 81
Fighter in summary: 334
BR.20: 107
Z.1007: 24
S.79: 287
Z.506: 24
Bomber in summary: 442
Plus a lot of reconnaissance aircraft , and 107 S.79, 87 fighter and 66 light bomber at North Africa.
Plus 15 Stukas at middle August at sicily
Malta didn't get any reinforcement at this time and from a simple military viewpoint and maths the Italians had;
Yes1. the troops
2. the landingships
3. the battleships for support
4 totaly air supermarcy
to attack Malta with success at August/September 1940.
And it is only logic, if I want to attack at North Africa that I crack the lock at my direct supply line!
Here are a lot of mixing up facts for a wrong timeline!
I think this is basically right, though I believe Rodney was fitted with Type 79Y in 1938. Point is, radar was not extensively fitted to the battle line until 1941. However, this gave the italians no real advantage. There is a well demonstrated inferiority operating at night and during the day, the italaians could not match the accuracy of the RN gunnery, with or without radar. At Punto Stilo (ne Calabria) Warspite achieve a record by hitting Cesare at 26500 yards. Italians had problems with dispersion, fire control and a marked reluctance for their destroyers to enter any smokescreen.
Under those conditions, whilst it was difficult for the RN to achieve dominance in Mare nostrum, because of the numbers, it was also very difficult to deny sea access to the RN as well...The situation until Taranto was essentially a "stalemate", except that the Italians simply refused to take risks, whilst the RN was completely the opposite. With their carriers they achieved air superiority at sea in that six months despite the numerical advantages to the RA. wouild.
Bragadin says that they were suffering oil shortages that were curtailing training and full usage of the battlefleet frommuch earlier than that. Ciano also says similar things in his diary. The crisis was not acute, but it was affecting themn from a very early stage.
Theoretically for about a week they did. In practice they didnt. They entered the war with just 2 BBs operational, which ramped up over the next 2 months to 4, and then finally 5 just before Taranto. They had clear numbers advantages in light forces, but were very spooked by the RN carriers .
Rapidly, the RN took steps to address this, such that by the second week of hostilities they outnumbered Italian Battlefleet, 5/2, and by the end of July 7/3. At no stage is there any evidence that the italians could get the better of the RN in open battle. They enjoyed a cl;ear superiority of numbers at Punto Stilo, but were driven from the battle, something they simply could not have done during an amphib operation. This reluctance to risk open battle was not an isolated icident, it happened again and again, and the only think that really saved the italians was the superior speed of their ships, that allowed them to escape when caught by any reasonable counter force by the RN. When robbed of speed advantages, such as at Cape Spada, they usually came off very badly.
Its not a matter of fact, its a matter of your opinion. The facts are, in fact, that the italians never attempted that, and on the few occasions they attempted to gain undisputed control of the central basin were strategically defeated (notably Punto Stilo and south of Sardinia). And historically the Italians in August/ September would have been attacking with 4 BBs available to 7 or 8 in the RN. They would have had to endure combat at Night, which the italians were very poor at doing, clearing minefields, and using (mostly) unsupported Infantry to attack a fairly well equipped and dug in defending force. that is not an easy ask, even for a big Navy like the USN
They had superiority of Cruisers, but not battleships. They also enjoyed a big advantgae in numbers of Destroyers. The historical battles shows these advantages were not enough to win them much at all in open battle, even when they massively outnumbered the british.
With regard to airborne resources, I refer you to this site
http://www.stormomagazine.com/Articles/itaparadivs.htm
Relevantly it says
The first paratroop units were organized in Libya in 1938 under the direction of Italo Balbo and consisted of two battalions totaling approximately 300 Libyan Ascaris and 50 Italian officers.
1st Rgt. "Fanti dell'Aria" (Air Infantry)
1st Libyian Paratroop Bn. (colonial troops)
2nd Libyian Paratroop Bn. (colonial troops)
A third Libyan battalion was raised in 1940 composed mainly of Italian colonials and was assimilated with the other two existing units into the Tonini Modile Group. The Tonini Mobile Group fought at Derna in January 1941 under 10th Army command and delayed the Australian advance however was eventually destroyed at Beda Fomm in subsequent fighting.
1st National Paratroop Bn. Of Libyia (Italians)
There were Bersaglieri present at the beginning of occonnors offensive. they were good troops, but poorly led, like all the italian formations. They showed reasonable skills in set piece battles, such as Keren but were easily outclassed in small unit fights or in mobile operations. alpini were used in the Italian offensive of 28 october against the greeks, showed better combat capability than the line Infantry units, but fell apart like the rest in the end
The strenghts of the Italian Air Force 10. June 1940 (excluding North Africa).
And the majority oif those were strung out in Norther italy supporting the abortive offensive into France, and many were also needed in Albania. About 40 were immediately detached to reinforce Rhodes and a similar number to Sardinia. Italian air supremacy was stretched from the very beginning and suffered attrociauous servicieability issues
***
Same as a above, plus important to note that only a fraction of these could deply to Sicily, because of the very primitive airfield situation. Wasnt addressed until FKX airfield engineers deplyed in October.
Incorrect. 12 Hurricanes were ferred in in mid July, and another convoy with a similar number arrived two weeks later. Malta received additional AA troops by the end of Auigust, and overall, was well supplied at that time.
Yes
Nope, not according to their historical performance. Several modest sized operations were cancelled in leter 1940 (Corfu) and 1941 (Kotoir) due to a lack of sufficient landing craft. They had them....in miniscule numbers, enough for about a battalion....the rest were by ships boats as demonstrated in their invasion of Albania in '39.
Outnumbered and unwilling to go toe to toe with the allies, and vulnerable to the Malta minefeilds, laid from pre-war.
Nope. they had the numbers, but could not achieve air superiority in any sense. Their aim in 1940 had been to isolate Malta. They could not achieve that, even after 6 months of effort. if anything, particulalry at sea, it was the british and their carriers, with the priceless advantages of mobility, who could claim air superiority over the central basin
So many ifs here, also trying to teach a leopard to change its spots. Just too much wishful thinking for this to ever be considered a reasonable capability assessment.
WhyCiano is a rat that can't be trust
2. 5 Italian Battleships (partly modern) against 4 old RN battleships
3. 2 libysche and 1 Carabinieri-Bataillon
4. they had the four Sesia class plus the one older ship, capacity to 4500 troops plus equipment, with 2500-3000 troops much more equipment.
5. 12 Hurricans against 334 fighter?
Significant upgrades of the Sicilain airfields was needed from October. FKX began movement in October...the very first thing they did ws upgrade the airfield facilties. Until then, spot capability was very limited6. The capacity of Sicily you will kidding me? At March 1941 there are 500 hundreds german aircrafts plus italian aircrafts!
7. RN Battleships were outnumbered at middle August to September 6/5 to 4 RN old Battleships.
I have written about strenghts and hearts! The Italian midddle leadership had the hearts and the strenghts, the problem was the high leadership!
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So 2 X 6 pounder and 2 x 9,2 inch at Marsaxlokk and not any gun at Wied at Zurieq!
Very impressive, sorry for the sarcasum not a single chance against Battleship Guns
If my goal is North Africa I will attack with all my strenghts at the lock. If I'm a smart ass I declare war at x Day at August 1940 when all my surface shipps are mainly at port and my battleships and landingships are minutes away to open fire at Malta and the landing ships are minutes away from the beach!
The spoils of war doesn't inrested!
the italians got 5 BBs in operation since the operation Hats (from 31st august), they never got 6, the Doria go in operation only in january '41. in the late summer 40 probably there were 4 para btls (1 libians,1 italian in libya, 1 carabinieri and 1 regular in Italy) but the regular and the carabinieri btls were just formed in july (afair the 2 lybians were merged in 1). In late summer '40 the war with France is over and the war with greece is not started, probably it's possible add around 50% of air force in Sicily, airport situation there were 10 military fields under Sicily comand and some were in building in june '40 i think there is not large logistic trouble.
Thats goos information, and confirms that the Italains lacked sufficient capability to get enough troops ashore to defeat the Malta Garrison, which stood at two Brigade groups.
The italians had an armada of small landing ships and Malta was only 40-50 miles away from Sicily at summer at the Meditrain.
This isn't the englisch channel nor the north atlantic
I will come back tomorow with exact datas, but the italian had 2 Littorios action ready at august 1940.
Also how can airborne troops fight at Derna at August?
You are forwarding the boring victoty literature, you should look at the exact datas!
[/QUOTE]Laut Ordersofbattle.com:
1.Dorste: regulär
2.Devon: regulär
2.West Kent: regulär
2.RIF: regulär
8.Manchaster: 1st Line TA
1.KOMR: regulär
2.KOMR: War Formed (15.01.1940)
3.KOMR: War Formed (01.07.1940 !)
hardly impressive!