You are in charge of the Italian Fleet 1941.

[DonL]

We are talking about Alpinis, San Marcos and Bersaglieri not any second rate troops.
Please stay realistic and to the topic not all Italian troops were inferior!

8.Manchaster: 1st Line TA
2.KOMR: War Formed (15.01.1940)
3.KOMR: War Formed (01.07.1940 !)

Hardly first line troops.

The rest is also debatable through the lack of training.
We are doing hairsplitting!
The troops which will defending Malta weren't any better then the airborne, Alpinis, San Marco or Bersaglieri!

This troops could land with the support of BB guns and had the possibilioty to land smal tanks, the defenders of Malta weren't anything special only average troops!

 

[parsifal]

We are talking about Alpinis, San Marcos and Bersaglieri not any second rate troops.
Please stay realistic and to the topic not all Italian troops were inferior!

8.Manchaster: 1st Line TA
2.KOMR: War Formed (15.01.1940)
3.KOMR: War Formed (01.07.1940 !)

Hardly first line troops.

The rest is also debatable through the lack of training.
We are doing hairsplitting!
The troops which will defending Malta weren't any better then the airborne, Alpinis, San Marco or Bersaglieri!

This troops could land with the support of BB guns and had the possibilioty to land smal tanks, the defenders of Malta weren't anything special only average troops!

No-one is claiming that the malta forces were anythng special, but then, the forces that defested the Italians in Cyrenaica werent special either. And the forces that defended Crete and almost defeated the german airborne and mountain units were the same troops, less their heavy equipment. So this is not about tropp quality, though in the end it is. The Italaians were quite effective fighters, but their organization let them down,as well as other factors, and no amount of elite training could overcome that.


So if the Australians (nothing special) could defeat an Italian fortified defender whilst outnumbered 2:1 on the attack, why couldnt the maltese defenders, whilst operating from dug in positions on the defensive not defeat 3 or 4 times their number of italian attackers. Therir forebears in 1565 certainly did exactly that, and anyone who knows the maltese (as i do) knows just how tough and good soldiers these guys are and were

There were 5000 regulars defending as at the beginning of june. On June 3 the Malta Milita (KOMR) was formed, and by the end of June had over 3000 men enlisted. These were poorly equipped at the start, but trained pretty hard, and gradyually received weappons ober the coming months. There were over 150 pillboxees and additional strongpoints laid around the shoreline, and additional troops being inducted from the local population all the time (one source says about 9000 at peak strength).

In any event malta by August was defended by about 8000 men, 5000 regulars and 3000 volunteers. Very similar numbers to the defenders of 1565.

Im not claimimng that the defenders of Malta were anything special, but then neither was the 6th Aus. It had gattereed its manpower in 1939, but the division only formed in March 1940. It went into action in December, initially defeating over 40000 defenders at Bardia. It again led the assault into Tobruk, where it was again outnumbered by at least 2:1 in troops. There were Bersglieri present at both those battles, and Italian elite units were also present at the debacles of Sidi barrani and Beda Fomm. At Derna, the Australians faced the best Infantry in North Africa at the time, including significant elements of 10th Bersaglieri Regt. There is no question that at Derna, and at Keren, the italians fought tenaciously and at times effectively (read the article and you will see it says that). But they were always poorly led, sometimes because of poor leaders, sometimes because there were not enough leaders in "middle management". Their tactics were poor, and sometimes their equipment and kit was poor. Its a credit to the Italian soldiers that they fought as well as they did.

Italian alpine units were present for the offensive into Greece. Initially this saw 8 divs attacking 1 2/3 greek divs.

The OB for that initial offensive consisted of an Army Corps to each theatre, formed from the existing forces occupying Albania. The stronger XXV Ciamuria Corps in Epirus consisted of the 23rd Ferrara, the 51st Siena Infantry Divisions, the 131st Centauro Armoured Division. In total, this was 30,000 men and 163 tanks. They intended to drive towards Ioannina, flanked on the right by a small brigade-sized "Littoral Group" (Raggruppamento Litorale) of 5,000 men along the coast, and to its left by the elite Julia Alpine Division, which would advance through the Pindus Mountains.

The XXVI Corizza Corps in the Macedonian sector consisted of the 29th Piemonte, the 49th Parma Infantry Divisions, and the 19th Venezia Division, for a total of 31,000 men. It was initially intended to maintain a defensive stance. In total, the force facing the Greeks comprised about 85,000 men under the command of Lt. General Sebastiano Visconti Prasca.


The Greek forces in the immediate area at the outbreak of the war were the 8th Infantry Division, fully mobilized and prepared for forward defence by its commander, some corps troops including the "Pindus Detachment" of regimental size under Colonel Konstantinos Davakis, the 9th Infantry Division (partially mobilized), and the 4th Infantry Brigade in Western Macedonia. The Greek forces amounted to about 35,000 men. so were badly outnumbered from the outset.

Julia Alpine Division showed great promise in this offesnive, but was eventually brought to ground by the greeks, with some difficulty. Once Julias resistance started to collapse, the entire front seemed to also falter. So I dont dispute that the Alpini were better quality trrops, but this is no different to the situation faced by the Knights Hospitaller in 1565. the Ottoman Janissaries numbered about 10000 in the Sultans army, yet were defeated by the unseseasoned levies of malta. in this case the defenders of malta were somewhat better trained and equipped (except for MT) than the 6Aus, which as previously shown had been able to defeat Italaian forces up to twice its own size, including Bersaglieri elite troops. They were to do it again in the following year at tobruk, defending against the germans.


Anyway, really would like these ships you are referring to so i can check their characterisitcs and numbers available.

 

[Vincenzo]

Again the italian get 5 BBs in operation Hats from 31st August. and i'm talking in operation not commissioned. (so we had the 2 Cavour, 2 VV, and 1 Duilio). The italian never get 4 BB in operation in '40 the got from 2 to 5, is true that probably the VV maybe ready before of the others but was not used before.
What are the british BB in medit?
There were not 2 Brigatde in Malta at that time there were a HQ/Brigade and 4 infantry and 1 mg btl of BA and 2/3 btls of maltese

 

[DonL]

What are the british BB in medit?

To my sources they had 4 BB's at August 1940 till enf of the year.

 

[Vincenzo]

just checked on naval-history.net
british BB (medit in '40, including Gibraltar)
Barham: from 15th october (just arrived was drydocked for repair, this stay in Gibraltar also from 2 to 6 september waiting for Dakar operation)
Malaya: from 19th april
Queen Elizabeth: never
Valiant: from 30th june to 4th august, from 29th august
Warspite: from 5th may
Ramillies: from 23rd may (just go in floating dock for refit but was sospended with italy declaration of war) to 7th december
Resolution: from 10th june to 6th september, from 16th december but in reparation
Revenge: never
Royal Sovereign: from 23rd april to 11th august, from 18th november to 1st december but at repair
Nelson: never
Rodney: never
Renown: from 20th august
Hood: frm 23rd june to 4th august.

 

[Vincenzo]

i want add on albanian orbat that Piemonte was the theater reserve and Venetia was original deployed on the Yugoslavian border. and that most of greek army were redeployed in the front, and the greek division had 3 infantry reg and the italian 2

 

[parsifal]

The specific deplyments of Britih Battleships to the Med, by month were as follows. Ive included a Battleship as available if it was on operations for more than 12 days in that calendar month in the TO. The only exception to this is June where, because the italians were not at war until the June 10, Ive reduced the necesary operations time to 7 days or more.

June: Hood, Malaya, Warspite Ramillies Resolution, Royal Sovereign (6)
Italians had four Battleships but only 2 had worked up and were ready

July: Hood Malaya, Valiant, Warspite, Ramillies Resolution Royal Sovereign (7)
Italians had 3 BBs operational and 2 others in commission but still not operational.

August: Ramillies, Resolution, Renown, Malaya, Valiant, Warspite (6)
Italians had 3 Bbs, possibly 4 operational, with 1 still working up and 1 still completing its modernization

September: Renown (also on Atlantic Patrols for a few days), Valiant, Warspite Ramillies, Royal Sovereign (5)
Italians had 4 BBs operational, with 1 working up and 1 still not yet commissioned.

October: Renown Malaya Valiant Warspite Ramillies, (5)
Italians had 6 BBs, but one had only just been recomissioned after a revuild and was not yet operational

November: Renown, Malaya, Valiant, Warspite Ramillies, Barham,(6)
Italians 6 BBs (all theoretically avaialable)

December: Renown, Malaya Valiant Warspite Barham (5)

Italians: 3 (possibly 2, not sure)


For the hats convoy, there were actually two operations , the british committed the following significant units

Force H

Renown Resolution
Cruiser Sheffield (radar equipped)

Cunningham

Warspite Malaya Valiant (now radar equipped....she was transferred from west to east because of that reason), Carrier Illustrious (radar equipped) Cruisers Coventry, Caledon and Caradoc (all radar equipped)

According to Corelli Barnett the italians completely missed force H, but did put to sea on the second day with 2 BBs 7 cruisers and many destroyers. However they did not seiously interfere with any part of the operation. They should have. Valiant about 5 DDs and the 3 CLAAs spent the night in Valetta offloading more than 1200 Army and air force personnel (with their wepons....this was an additional Infantry Battalion) . This brought the number of regular Infantry Battalions on the island up to 5. In additiona to that, there were now 4 locally raised militia units (KOMR) battalions. A convoy of 3 supply ships put out from Alexandria. One merchantmen was hit, but she remained afloat and made it that evening to Malta. This convoys carried precious cargo, 5500 rifles, with ammunition, 8 x 3.7in HAA guns, 10 x 40mm Bofors, 10000 rounds of HAA (including the 40mm shells) and a similar number of artillery shells, 100 Bren guns. Some sources also say that a few 2 pounder AT guns and AT riflres were delovered, but I am doubtful about the 2 pounders. My best guess if that 24 ATRs were delivered. A few sources also say that mortars were delivered ....but Im not convinced.

You guys are absolutely wrong to assert there were only 4 Infantry Battalions defending the island. Up to June 3 that is a correct statement. From June 3 to June 30 an additional 4 Battalions of local militia were added to the defenders, amounting to 3000 men. I believe that this had increased to about 4000 by the beginning of August. They were only pooorly armed until the arrival of the Hats convoys in August. From August there were 5 regular and 4 militia Bns deployed, with the milita Bns now properly armed. There were over 150 strongpoints and concrete pilboxes now in place in addition to the prewar fortifications, and dense minefeilds now protected the approaches to the island except by classified channels not known to the Axis. Malta was now a veritable fortress, and the only way the italians had any hope of assaulting the island was by effective blockade, which "Hats" and other relive operations demonstrated in spades they could not do.

 

[parsifal]

To my sources the italians had 5 battleships ready for operation at august 1940!

Italian landing crafts available for C3
10 x PF (Piroscafo) [Aventino, Viminale, Quirinale, Italia, Milano,Tunisi,
Calino, Rosandra, Crispi, Donizzetti]
Small passenger ships. Capacity from 800 to 1,400 men.
6 x PFC (Piroscafo da carico) [ ? ]
As above, but loaded with cargo. Capacity 3,000 tons.
2 x NT (Nave traghetto) [Messina, Aspromonte]
Ex-Messina Strait railway ferries. 1,000 tons. Capacity 4-8 tanks each.
4 x MC (Motocisterna) - [Sesia, Tirso, Scrivia, Garigliano]
Thats the four landing ships I refer in my previous posts
Pre-war purpose-built LST. Utilized for artillery transport. Could carry two
75 Btys with vehicles.
5 x PM (Posamine) [Buccari, Durazzo, Pelagosa, Crotone, Vieste]
Ex-light minelayer. Makeshift bow ramp (motorcycle-able). Capacity 500 men.
2 x MN (Motonave) [Aquileia and ?]
Ex-Venice ferries. Similar to PM. Capacity 400 men.
4 x PFP (Piroscafo Piccolo) [Tabarca, Sauro, Mafalda, Argentina]
Ex-Capri ferries. As MN.
70 x MZ (Motozattera) [50 Italians, 20 Germans]
German MPF model. 250 tons, 10 knots. Armament 1x76/40, 1x20/65. Bow loading
ramp. Capacity 220 men, or vehicles for 50 tons.
30 x MV (Motoveliero)
Ex-trawlers. Makeshift bow ramp (men only). HMG-armed. Capacity 300 men, or
100 tons of supplies.
24 x MF (Motoscafo)
Ex-Venice motorboats. 20 tons. LMG-armed. Capacity 75 men.
50 x ML (Motolancia)
Littler still motorboats. 15 tons. Capacity 30 men

At least the 70 MZ = MFP are not available at 1940.

Edit:

The british fleet had 30 hours from Alexandria to Malta at 20kn (20kn are very optimistic for the old BB and DD for cruising speed), more then enough time to do the critical moves, even landing a second wave with the Sesia Class.

With regard to the alleged sealift capability, why did the italians cancel two important operation (Corfu and Kotor) citing inadequate sealift capability as one of the reasons for these cancellations (poor weather was also stated for the Corfu operation though Greek sources do not corroborate that claim, and Greek DDs unertook nuisance bombardments in the same general areas at that time).

With regard to your alleged timetable, not a chance. Your fleet has to emark, form up travel from the ports of assembly and then undertake one of the most difficult assaults i can think of. I dont know the embarkation rates for the nearest major port (which would have to be either tripoli ofr Syracuse), but 24 hours has to be at least a plausible number. Lets assume a fleet speed of 8 knots and a straight line travel distance of 130 miles. Because zig zag will need to be oput into effect, and convoy rules established, you are lookintg at a crossing time of about 30-60 hours. Then you you have the battle to fight. It will be necessary to clear pathways through the minefields for the assault forces, which given the italian capability will be at least 48 hours (Im trying to be charitable....more like a week really, if at all) then undertake prepratory bombardments.... similar minesweeper reports that I have seen. For the capture of tarawa, considered a failure because the bombardment was too short, it took 3 hours of bombardment and 3 days of extremely hard fighting for the island, less than one twentieth the area of Malta, to be taken. Therer were over 30000 attackers (including 18000 Infantry and only 2500 defenders, mostly in fairly rudimentary earthern bombshelters. The Japanese, despite being heavily bombed to eliminate the air resources of the area, knew of the approaching Americans at least two days in advance (and sank one of the carriers as a result). The Americans employed at least 300 assault craft, 170 of them bigger than a DD, and i count about 70 in your force.

There is no way that the italians can sneak in in less than 30 hours and have any hope of taking the island 20 times the size of betio, and defended by 4 times the numbers of defenders. There is no way they can clear the minefields in time, if at all and then there is no way they can hope to get a big enough landing force across the beaches to anything other than sit on the beaches and get themselves killed. let alone subdue the defenders with the tiny sealift capacity you are relying onb. It would be a bad joke, except you are actually serious.

 

[vinnye]

Ignoring the relative strengths of the troops on both sides, I think that the Italians would have had great difficulty in gathering an invasion force without the British getting wind of it.
Aerial recon and interceptions of radio traffic would give the RN in Alexandria and Gibralta sufficient time to intervene if they wanted to.
I believe that they would have decided that this was an opportunity that they could not miss out on. If they were concerned about aerial attack - whichthey were not if it were the high altitude Italian bombing, then they could hold off the islands until dark and engage the invasion fleet when th RN had a distinct advantage.

 

[Vincenzo]

Parsifal are you ignoring me? so just for known
i've posted already that since 31st august the italian fleet sail with 5 BBs, so yiu can not wirte that in september they had 4, for the british in my post 65th i give exact date for deployement in medit.
your method for 12 days in a month can give duplication, you can had 2 BB that get this target but that were not present in same time.
British started with 5 (Malaya, Warspite, Ramillies, Resoluton and Royal Sovereign)
23 june add Hood (so 6)
30th june add Valiant (so 7)
4th august left Valiant and Hood (so 5)
11th august left Royal Sovereign (so 4)
20th august add Renown (so 5)
29th august add Valiant (so 6)
from 2nd to 6th september add Barham (so 7)
6th september left Resolution/Barham (so 5)
15th october add Barham (so 6)
obviously after Taranto night the landing on malta are impensable

 

[Freebird]

To my sources they had 4 BB's at August 1940 till enf of the year.

No, in fact there are 7 British battleships, + 1 battlecruiser

Parsifal are you ignoring me? so just for known
i've posted already that since 31st august the italian fleet sail with 5 BBs, so yiu can not wirte that in september they had 4, for the british in my post 65th i give exact date for deployement in medit.
your method for 12 days in a month can give duplication, you can had 2 BB that get this target but that were not present in same time.
British started with 5 (Malaya, Warspite, Ramillies, Resoluton and Royal Sovereign)
23 june add Hood (so 6)
30th june add Valiant (so 7)
4th august left Valiant and Hood (so 5)
11th august left Royal Sovereign (so 4)
20th august add Renown (so 5)
29th august add Valiant (so 6)
from 2nd to 6th september add Barham (so 7)
6th september left Resolution/Barham (so 5)
15th october add Barham (so 6)
obviously after Taranto night the landing on malta are impensable

Vincenzo you seem to be assuming that the British will completely ignore the events around Malta in regard to their deployments.
British intelligence was intercepting Axis transmissions, and would also certainly be aware if there was a major build up of Axis naval assets (in preparation for an amphibious invasion)
Royal Sovereign left the Med for the Indian Ocean on Aug 11, and began a minor refit in Durban in September. They would almost certainly not have withdrawn this ship if there had been a major Axis operation underway.

Barham was based at Gibraltar from July - September 1940, with short periods escorting convoys to/from Freetown or Bermuda, so the ship is not "unavailable" during this time. Had there been a major Italian operation all 7 battleships could have been deployed, being pulled off of convoy escort if needed. (as was done during the Bismarck sortie)

Guys, there is an excellent resource on the "Cruiser Operations" website, they have a fleet locater which will show you the location of all British battleships, Carriers cruisers + German capital ships including Panzerschiff, for any month of the war. (Just input month year at the bottom)

Fleet Dispositions

That is a might big 'IF".

And it cuts both ways.

British have 14 battleships/battlecruisers Minus damages from the Norway campaign?) in the summer of 1940, No KGVs are ready yet but 5 ships are building.

Germans have how many battleships/battlecruisers after the Norway campaign? ZERO?

Italians have 2 battleships historically and how many in this theoretical scenario? 3? 4? 5?

British may have an opportunity to to knock the Italian fleet out of the war in the summer of 1940 with this Invasion plan. They sure don't need 12 capitol ships to stop a German invasion fleet.

Shortround, there are 12 British battleships in service July - Sept 1940, as QE is being refitted and Nelson is still repairing damage. There are 11 available from Oct - Dec, assuming that British refits proceed as planned.

You are correct, there are no German capital ships available, other than cruisers the only German ship not under repair is the Adm. Scheer.

 

[Vincenzo]

freebird check your data, Barham was a Scapa Flow until 28 august, sail to Gibraltar and arrive the 2nd september, Sovereign was sent for refit the 16th august at arrive to Aden had 1 boiler operational, actually she stay to work in various bases, only the 1st december was sent to join to Halifax Escort Force

 

[DonL]

There is not a single prove or anything elese to claim, that England had the capacity in radio transmission intelligent at summer 1940.

 

[vinnye]

You do not have to have broken someones codes to be able to interpret the quantity of radio traffic to be alerted to the possibility of your opponent is preparing for something big.
Organizing all of the component parts of a large scale amphibious invasion with coordinated air operations usually makes a lot of radio noise! Once you have picked up the increase in radio chatter, the sensible thing to do is send aerial recon missions to see what the noise is all about.

 

[parsifal]

Parsifal are you ignoring me? so just for known
i've posted already that since 31st august the italian fleet sail with 5 BBs, so yiu can not wirte that in september they had 4,

Nope, not ignoring you, just not acknowledging that it is anything other than what it is....unsupported opinion. My Post 58 provides a referenced response and states as follows

"Steel Ships" says that Caio Duillo "Recommissioned on July 15, 1940 Caio Duilio ready for action last week of August, sortied on 31 August against HMS Valiant but returned to port the next day. On September 7 she returned to sea, acting under information that the British Force H was on the move. Force H was indeed on the move but instead of eastward into the Mediterranean, it went south to the west coast of Africa on the fiasco that was the Dakkar attack. Caio Duilio was at Taranto when the Italian battle fleet was attacked by the FAA on November 11, 1940".

Battleship Andrea Doria was even later. Steel Navy again "After repairs and modernizations had been completed, the Andrea Doria was recomissioned into the Regia Marina on October 20, 1940. She was assigned to convoy duty between Italy and Libya to supply Axis troops fighting in the North African Front and took part in the First Battle of Sirte. After the Armistice in September 1943 the ship was sailed to Malta with her sistership and was interned by the Allies".

So, instead of "telling me" with unsuppported statements (which appear wrong anyway), how about supporting your assertions with soime referenced statements, like Ive fone.

for the british in my post 65th i give exact date for deployement in medit.
your method for 12 days in a month can give duplication, you can had 2 BB that get this target but that were not present in same time.
British started with 5 (Malaya, Warspite, Ramillies, Resoluton and Royal Sovereign)
23 june add Hood (so 6)
30th june add Valiant (so 7)
4th august left Valiant and Hood (so 5)
11th august left Royal Sovereign (so 4)
20th august add Renown (so 5)
29th august add Valiant (so 6)
from 2nd to 6th september add Barham (so 7)
6th september left Resolution/Barham (so 5)
15th october add Barham (so 6)

There are some errors in here, you seem to have missed a couple of dates, moreover you seem to think that ships in Force H operating in the Atlantic for a day or a week are not available. not so, they remained under the command of Force H and were available

Nothing wrong with my method. A unit that spends 12 days in the TO will generallt spend a few days either side of that refitting and or refuelling at Gib before entering the command. Quite possibley as a ship enters the TO whilst another is leaving, ther will be two BBs on station at Gib, one leaving and one arriving (to releive the one about to leave. if a crisis developed in the central basis, there would be two BBs available instead of the one.

Also, it is reasonable to base it on 12 days in the month, because on average, thats the number of days any ship will spend on station, or ready for operations. At other times the ships of both navies will be in refit, refuelling restocking or whatever. ships tend to spend more than 50% of their commissioned time not available, so 12 days is a reasonable estimate. .

 

[parsifal]

With regard to reading Italian Naval Codes, I am not completely sure one or the other about the extent that Italian naval Enigma was being read. The British had cracked the Italian Naval ciphers in 1937, during the Spanish Civil War, and in 1940 Dilly Knox (the man responsible) wanted to establish whether the Italian Navy were still using the same system that he had cracked during the Spanish Civil War; he instructed his assistants to use rodding to see whether the crib PERX (per being Italian for "for" and X being used to indicate a space between words) worked for the first part of a current message. After three months there was no success, but Mavis Lever, a 19-year-old student, found that rodding produced PERS for the first four letters of one message. She then (against orders) tried beyond this and obtained PERSONALE (Italian for "personal"). This confirmed that the Italians were indeed using the same machines and procedures.

The subsequent breaking of Italian naval Enigma ciphers led to substantial Allied successes. The cipher-breaking was disguised by sending a reconnaissance aircraft to the known location of a warship before attacking it, so that the Italians assumed that this was how they had been discovered. The Royal Navy's victory at the Battle of Cape Matapan in March 1941 was considerably helped by Ultra intelligence obtained from Italian naval Enigma signals.

On the basis of the above, youd probably have to concede that in Augist, there would not be much direct r eading of italian traffic. however the British were reading significant amounts of German traffic (with the exception of the U-Boat ciphers). Given that this scenario trlies on some German help, there is a better than 50% chance that the British would at least get some idea of what was coming and where from via third part proxies.



Other source material paint a slightly different picure::

http://www.bletchleypark.org.uk/content/archive/index/june.rhtm,

"With the entry of the Italians into the war on 10th June the work of the BP Italian naval sub-section under Wilfred Bodsworth becomes important. Since 1937 they had been reading the most secret book code of the Italian navy, but the Italians now changed these, and BP failed to read them after July 1940, except for rare, capture assisted, occasions. BP read the valuable but rarely used Italian naval Enigma from September 1940 until it was withdrawn in the summer of 1941. For in December 1940 the Italian navy introduced a medium grade Swedish cypher machine, the C-38m. This was broken by BP in June 1941 and read almost continuously thereafter with great impact on the war in N. Africa".

This suggests that the British could read italian signal traffic up until July 1940, and from July until June 1941 just bits and pieces, and then from June 1941 more or less all Italian traffic (the C-38M machine used the same levels of security as the Lufwaffe and heer machines). If the British could read traffic until July, they would have knowledge of a planned italian assault on Malta, and would act accordingly

 

[Vincenzo]

Parsifal my statement are right in both 31st august and 7th september italian fleet run with 5 BBs this easy to checked, i never tell that Doria was operational in 1940, actually i writed was operational in january.
What errors please? i have not take out ship operating in Atlantic for 1 day or a week. You method was wrong i've already write because. my list count ship in refueling a Gib as in fleet.

 

[Vincenzo]

on italian code the code break from Mavi Slever was not the common used from the navy was for the variant used of enigma that was in limited use (commonly were used book codes). (for some source the first decriptation of italian message was in march '41 and were not usefull decriptation before of this)

 

[parsifal]

Parsifal my statement are right in both 31st august and 7th september italian fleet run with 5 BBs this easy to checked, i never tell that Doria was operational in 1940, actually i writed was operational in january.

You never said 31 August, you said August. Littorio and Vento were decalred operational 2 August, but continued work up excercises throughout most of August. First operational usage of these two ships that i know of was against "Hats", where they put to sea briefly before retiring having not fired a shot.

However for some time in August, Battleship Cesare was undertgoingt repairs from damage received from the 15" hit(s) she had suffered at Puno Stilo. So the correct, or most correct answer to "how many Battleships in August" is 4, not 5.

What errors please? i have not take out ship operating in Atlantic for 1 day or a week. You method was wrong i've already write because. my list count ship in refueling a Gib as in fleet

.

I jotted them down as I went through the individual ship histories of the Nav History website. I will have to go back and find them now. I will get back to you on the omissions you have made.

 

[Vincenzo]

You never said 31 August, you said August. Littorio and Vento were decalred operational 2 August, but continued work up excercises throughout most of August. First operational usage of these two ships that i know of was against "Hats", where they put to sea briefly before retiring having not fired a shot.

However for some time in August, Battleship Cesare was undertgoingt repairs from damage received from the 15" hit(s) she had suffered at Puno Stilo. So the correct, or most correct answer to "how many Battleships in August" is 4, not 5.


.

I jotted them down as I went through the individual ship histories of the Nav History website. I will have to go back and find them now. I will get back to you on the omissions you have made.

Parsifal i've not said 31 august? you are a false be ashamed, my post 55 of 14/3 never modified, my post 64 15/3 never modified. not fired a shot so you want count not present its? so we can count not present all the british BB no fired a shot? The Cesare go in Sea in both the operation and i never writed that in august the italian had 5 BBs again you are false i writed that were 5 in september.
i'm waiting for my omissions