Your favorite French fighter?

[Shortround6]

The Arsenal VG series suffered from a lack of development potential.

The Airframe, while offering good performance for the engines it was tried with, might have been too small for any serious upgrading of engines, armament or range. A wing about 87-88% the size of a 109's wing doesn't over a lot of scope.

 

[VG-33]

Of the French "too late" fighters the Bloch M.B.-157 seems to have claimed the most impressive performance.

710 km/h ( 441 mph) at 26,000 ft.

Maybe it should, not did. Unfortunately, there are no test records confirming that...

Regards

 

[VG-33]

The Arsenal VG series suffered from a lack of development potential.

The Airframe, while offering good performance for the engines it was tried with, might have been too small for any serious upgrading of engines, armament or range. A wing about 87-88% the size of a 109's wing doesn't over a lot of scope.

Why not? The VG-39bis was intended to recieve a 1600 hp Hipano.

Arsenal VG-33 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Didn't the russians succeed on fitting both VK-107 and ASh-82 FN on their Yak-3 airframes?

Regards

 

[Shortround6]

Why not? The VG-39bis was intended to recieve a 1600 hp Hipano.

Arsenal VG-33 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Didn't the russians succeed on fitting both VK-107 and ASh-82 FN on their Yak-3 airframes?

Regards

The French intended for a lot of things, some of which were pretty much pie in the sky.

The "Z" series Hispano engines were several years away even if France had not been overrun. They also seemed to have a lot of trouble meeting their claimed performance even after the war. Their claimed altitude performance would have required , by far, the most advance single stage superchargers the world had seen in the entire decade of the 40s.

Please note that the VG-39 with the Hispano 89ter engine lost the 20mm engine gun and was making do with 6 7.5mm mg in the wings. A 25% reduction in firepower compared to a Hurricane. Granted the "Z" series engines were supposed to use an engine mounted cannon.
None of these planes had armor or self sealing tanks did they? or bullet proof windscreens.
More powerful engines mean higher fuel consumption.

Wasn't the standard YAK-3 criticized for short range?
While the Russians did fit more powerful engines to the Yak-3 airframe the ASh-82 version only kept adequate firepower by using a new generation light weight 20mm cannon. Granted the radial was a bit heavier than V-12s.

As for the pie in the sky comment see the variety of French "light fighters" and some of the proposed armaments for them.

Or see the armament fit on the Potez 630 fighter variants, two 20mm hispano cannon plus up to 6 7.5mm MGs on a 203 seat plane powered by a pair of 700hp engines and they thought it was equivalent to a Bf 110? OK they were planing replacements in 1940 like:

Sud-Est SE 100 / Liore-et-Olivier LeO 50 - fighter

A 3 seat plane with under 1200hp engines mounting 4 forward firing Hispanos and one rearward firing on a powered mount?

Given the deterioration in performance of most other peoples aircraft from prototype to service issue aircraft I can't help but wonder what the squadron aircraft would have performed like.

 

[VG-33]

Hello,

The French intended for a lot of things, some of which were pretty much pie in the sky.

True, but if some pies were still in the sky, some others were already in plates.
As for VG with Hispano Y-45 and Y-51 engines.
The Y-45 was in production, the Y-51 had just passed it's state certification tests.

The "Z" series Hispano engines were several years away even if France had not been overrun.

So the time for the "Z" for being available, the airframe could have been redisigned several time.

Please note that the VG-39 with the Hispano 89ter engine lost the 20mm engine gun and was making do with 6 7.5mm mg in the wings. A 25% reduction in firepower compared to a Hurricane. Granted the "Z" series engines were supposed to use an engine mounted cannon.

Note also that the VG-33 was the sole french fighter, if not the sole fighter in the world to remind competitive with a 850/860 hp engine against a 1100 hp Me-109E or the 1030 hp Merlin Spitfire. And was able to remind so, even with some power and "strategical meterials" lack against them.
As a "panic fighter", VG-39 was not bad, it's better to have a 25% reduced Hurricane's firepower Fighter, than no fighter at all, in that order.

None of these planes had armor or self sealing tanks did they? or bullet proof windscreens.
More powerful engines mean higher fuel consumption.

I won't bet my arm, or other think it didn't have it. Last MS-406 had armor and protected (but not self-sealing) tanks. Sometimes added in operationnal units or retrofitted for early ones. You should apply it to others fighters of that time in the same way, even during BoB not all af them had such features.
Even if you're obliged to add back's seat armor and resin coat it makes 65/80 + 15/20 kg more. The earth wouldn't stop to go round for that...

Wasn't the standard YAK-3 criticized for short range?

No more than La-7 or Yak-9. Even the 9D variant, since extra wing tanks were always sealed and never used in order to save weight.

While the Russians did fit more powerful engines to the Yak-3 airframe the ASh-82 version only kept adequate firepower by using a new generation light weight 20mm cannon. Granted the radial was a bit heavier than V-12s.

Plane desigh was always a compromise, but if it's impossible to keep the firepower in that configuration, the only way is to reduce it...But the Yak-3 BTW did not kept, but increased it (first 200 serial planes had 1 ShVAK + 1 BS, the others 1 BS more). With classical old formula 1 ShVAK + 1 BS the difference would be about 20 kg...

Or see the armament fit on the Potez 630 fighter variants, two 20mm hispano cannon plus up to 6 7.5mm MGs on a 203 seat plane powered by a pair of 700hp engines and they thought it was equivalent to a Bf 110?

There were obviously official specs problems. The plane in itself, was completly fulfilling them as the Fairey battle did for it' s own ones.

OK they were planing replacements in 1940 like:

Sud-Est SE 100 / Liore-et-Olivier LeO 50 - fighter

What if? There were a lot of romantic technofreaks elsewhere...

Regards

 

[Night Fighter Nut]

The Potez 631 was the French night fighter. Sadly enough the only bomber it was able to catch up to was the He 111. Everything else out flew it. It was woefully underpowered and it too much resembled the Me 110. One of the main reasons the French anti-aircraft kept trying, and a few times successfully, to shoot them down. I hope to build this model soon to add to my collection.

 

[jipi]

One of the main reasons the French anti-aircraft kept trying, and a few times successfully, to shoot them down.

French AAA guns shot everything they saw, as the chance for them to meet a french plane was so tiny...
French pilots also used to be captured and considered as spies when jumping off their plane.

 

[vikingBerserker]

Gees, that would really stink.

 

[Sagittario64]

I like the D.520. It soldiered on throughout the war.
1940 - french
1941 1942 - Vichy French
1943 - Italy
1944 - Bulgaria

 

[Messy1]

French AAA guns shot everything they saw, as the chance for them to meet a french plane was so tiny...
French pilots also used to be captured and considered as spies when jumping off their plane.

Talk about a morale killer! Wow!

 

[nuuumannn]

I have to say that I'm like a lot of you in that my knowledge of French fighters is superficial, but Marcel Bloch is something of a legend and since his firm designed the Mirage (the best French fighter ever) I'm going with the Bloch series of fighters, also someone else said they were good!

 

[Readie]

I'd be interested to know the background of these fighters and why one was better etc.
John

 

[davebender]

Dassault Mirage F1 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Great performance when it entered service during 1973, five years ahead of the F16A. Why didn't European nations purchase it rather then opting for the U.S. built aircraft? The Mirage F1 could have been the first Eurofighter.

Not that this has anything to do with WWII.

 

[Readie]

Dassault Mirage F1 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Great performance when it entered service during 1973, five years ahead of the F16A. Why didn't European nations purchase it rather then opting for the U.S. built aircraft? The Mirage F1 could have been the first Eurofighter.

Not that this has anything to do with WWII.

Nothing to do with being French I suppose?
John

 

[davebender]

The French are your neighbors. You've even got a rail tunnel connecting France to England. Why can't Britain cooperate with France to build a fighter aircraft?

 

[Matt308]

Please don't answer that.

 

[tomo pauk]

France was for a most part of post-ww2 era an outcast from NATO, and in Europe only NATO countries were buying F-16s. So neither F-1 nor Viggen (one of my all-time favourites) stood no chance vs. US plane for European NATO countries.

 

[Readie]

The French are your neighbors. You've even got a rail tunnel connecting France to England. Why can't Britain cooperate with France to build a fighter aircraft?

dave, the chunnel connects France to England and was a true Anglo French effort. I used to travel in weekly when I worked in Coquelles/Calais. It was fantastic as everyone spoke English.....
Cooperation over aircraft? Concorde is our (only) finest hour and no one ( not even our American friends) have built such an advanced passenger jet.
Powered by Britain's own RR too...the icing on the cake.
Cooperation with fighters?...not on your nelly.
John

 

[davebender]

When I was in southern France most people spoke at least some English. However I had the feeling they thought everyone really should be speaking French.

 

[Readie]

When I was in southern France most people spoke at least some English. However I had the feeling they thought everyone really should be speaking French.

We holiday in Nice - Frejus in southern France and things always go better when we speak French initially.
and lob these gems into the conversation....Bonjour mate....



VICTORY
Battle of Evesham - August 4, 1265
Marking the end of Chivalry in England, the British under Prince Edward earn a victory against Frenchman Simon de Montfort in this massacre.

VICTORY
Battle of Crecy - August 26, 1346
Edward III of England is victorious against Philip VI of France.

VICTORY
Battle of Poitiers - September 19, 1356
Edward of England is victorious against John II of France.

VICTORY
Battle of Auray - September 29, 1364
Sir John Chandos of England defeats Charles of Blois.


VICTORY
Battle of Agincourt - October 25, 1415
Henry V of England defeats Frenchmen Jean Le Maingre and Charles d'Albret.

VICTORY
Battle of Cravant - July 31, 1423
Thomas Montacute of England defeats Comte de Vendome of France.


VICTORY
Battle of Oudenarde - July 11, 1708
Britain defeats Frenchmen Duc of Burgundy and the Duc de Vendome.


VICTORY
Battle of Albuera - May 16, 1811
Britain defeats Frenchman Nicolas Jean de Dieu.

VICTORY
Battle of Badajoz - March 16-April 6, 1812
Britain deals a major blow to Napoleon Bonaparte of France.

VICTORY
Battle of Salamanca - July 22, 1812
Britain defeats Frenchman Auguste Marmont.

VICTORY
Battle of Vitoria - June 21, 1813
Britain defeats Jean-Baptiste Jourdan and Joseph Bonaparte of France.

VICTORY
Battle of Leipzig - October 16-19, 1813
Britain defeats Napoleon I of France.

VICTORY
Battle of Waterloo - June 18, 1815
England defeats Napoleon of France in his last battle.


and before anyone jumps up and down I am joking.
I like the French (in small doses)

John