Your favorite post-war aircraft

[F4D]

Interesting.

India has officially claimed that in the 1972 war its MiG-21 had only 3 encounters with the F-104 and claimed 4 kills. With a total claim of nine F-104 Kills for the whole war, and that the total number of MiG-21 kills were 6 out of a total of 18 Air to Air kills and that of the 6 MiG's
lost only 1 was in Air to Air combat with the enemy but 1 shot down by another MiG-21 with the rest lost to ground fire.

Official PAF records show 3 F-104 losses total, one to ground fire.
In the IAF accounts it was stated that the first two fights each claimed one Starfighter both of them on Ground Attack Runs when shot down, the first at 100 feet above the Ocean surface

The last encounter took place at less than 1600 feet down to 150 ft and that these two kills were aircraft on loan from Jordan,possibly flown by Jordanian pilots who fired a sidewinder
in a head on panic attack.

The US provided only 12 F- 104 A's and Jordan loaned 10 F-104 A's still in desert camouflage during the war. By that time the IAF had built 100+ MiG's plus the ones provided by the USSR.
Five full MiG-21 Squadrons in the West and Three in the East. While the PAF had 1 F-104 squadron in total it being located in the West.

 

[Glider]

Claims and counter claims are always a confusing area.
PAF claimed two Mig 21's in air to air combat. The one shot down be the F86 where they captured the pilot so there is little doubt about that one. The other by an F6 flown by Flt Lt Aamer on the 14th December which was confirmed by other members of the flight, which could be less certain.

The PAF went to some trouble to confirm their claims setting up a crash location effort to compare claims to actuals. One independent observer was Chuck Yaeger, who's personal Beech U8 was shot up by Indian fighters at Chaklala Airport. I bet he was pleased.

The friendly fire incident between the Mig 21 matches my records as does the Indians claiming 4 F104 kills but I have a damaged in the fourth missing incident which could easily be a problem at my end.

I have three F104's being shot down on the 17th Dec by Mig 21's of the 29th Squadron in two incidents. In the first an F104 of two attacking Uttarlai airfield was shot down. In the second two F104's covering an attack by Sabres on Indian positions near Naya Chor were both shot down.
On the 12th Dec I have a combat near the port of Sikka resulting in the destruction of an F104, the pilot being captured.
The fourth incident that I have is another F104 being damaged in the Guijrat area again on the 12th December. Can I ask how this ties in with your records?
Please do not feel as if I am doubting your details, mine have been put together over the years mainly from articles that have been published and that isn't the best source of data.

Whatever the differences in our records there is little doubt that it was a one way street between the F104 and the Mig 21. What hasn't been discused is the difference between Mig 21 and Mirage which also came into conflict. That will take me time to sort out.

 

[Gnomey]

I personally like the SR-71, Harrier, Eurofighter and F-22.

 

[plan_D]

As always, which is never going to change, the English Electric Lightning.

And FB, didn't the Australian F-86s have AIM-9s? Now, I can't remember where I read this but I did read the British fitted Sabre's with Aden 30mm and Rolls Royce Avon engines as well as the fittings for AIM-9 'Sidewinders' for the Australian Sabres.

 

[Glider]

Your right Plan D the Aussie Sabres had the Aden, Avon and Sidewinders and must have been the best Sabre around by some margin.

I admit that I thought that the Taiwan Sabres had the Sidewinder as well

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

And mine changes regularly but this is my list as before: Mine favorites are the F-14, Mig-29, UH-1H, UH-60L, AH-1W, F-16, and the A-10.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

And FB, didn't the Australian F-86s have AIM-9s? Now, I can't remember where I read this but I did read the British fitted Sabre's with Aden 30mm and Rolls Royce Avon engines as well as the fittings for AIM-9 'Sidewinders' for the Australian Sabres.

Not during the Korean War, but they did later.

Your right Plan D the Aussie Sabres had the Aden, Avon and Sidewinders and must have been the best Sabre around by some margin.

I admit that I thought that the Taiwan Sabres had the Sidewinder as well

Correct on all points - I think Taiwan stared receiving their Sidewinders around 1954 and I've heard stories of engagements between Chinese Migs and the Tiawan Sidwinder Sabres - I even remember reading somewhere that US pilots might of participated in these clashes, flying the Taiwan Sabres....

 

[plan_D]

I bet those Aussie Sabres were mean.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I bet those Aussie Sabres were mean.

All those Korean War Stories about the MiG-15's cannons being able to knock down a sabre with one hit - could you imagine a MiG-15 getting hit by a 30mm Aden!

 

[plan_D]

I imagine it'd involve a big bang. I'd have love to seen a Lightning using those Adens in action. But unfortunately they never did. My dad saw them using them on live fire exercises but that's it.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

That must have been a site. I am sure a 30mm Aden would completly disintegrate a Mig-15 back then.

 

[Glider]

The Aden was and still is a powerful weapon. I believe that some Hunters for the overseas market had a switch so that only 2 instead of 4 Adens would fire. It was recognised that 4 Adens would turn most targets into something akin to Window.

 

[evangilder]

That would definitely do some damage!

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Yeap vaporize it.

 

[mosquitoman]

Nothing bad about that
Favourite at the moment is the Canberra

 

[pbfoot]

in order f101b voodoo probably outclimb lightning
vulcan
f 105
f 86 mk 6 best sabre ever
f 104

 

[cheddar cheese]

F-101 outclimb Lightning? Id like to see that...

 

[FLYBOYJ]

McDonnell F-101B Voodoo Close Window

Fighter/Reconnaissance

KNOWN OPERATORS:
United States of America
Canada
China


BASIC INFORMATION:
Designation: F-101B Voodoo
Manufacturer: McDonnell
Country: United States
Service Date: 1957
Type: Fighter/Reconnaissance
Crew: 2
DIMENSIONS:
Length: 20.54 m (67 ft 4.75 in)
Wingspan: 12.09 m (39 ft 8 in)
Height: 5.49 m (18 ft)
Weight (Empty): 13,141 kg (28,970 lbs)
Weight (Loaded): 23,768 kg (52,400 lbs)
PERFORMANCE STATISTICS:
Powerplant: 2 x Pratt Whitney delivering 6,749 kg (14,880 lbs) Afterburning thrust J57-P-55 turbojet engines.
Max Speed: 1,965 kph (1,221 mph)
Max Range: 2,494 km (1,550 miles)
Service Ceiling: 16,705 m (54,800 ft)
Rate of Climb: 11,133 m (36,500 ft) per minute


British Elelctric Lightning
Dimensions
Length 55 ft 3 in 16.84 m
Wingspan 34 ft 10 in 10.62 m
Height 19 ft 7 in 5.97 m
Wing area 474.5 ft² 44.1 m²
Weights
Empty 28,000 lb 12,700 kg
Loaded 41,700 lb 18,900 kg
Maximum takeoff lb kg
Powerplant
Engines 2 × Rolls-Royce Avon 301R turbojet engines with afterburners
Thrust 2 × 16,360 lbf 2 × 72.8 kN
Performance
Maximum speed Mach 2.27
1,500 kt 2,780 km/h
Combat range 400 miles 640 km
Ferry range 1,560 miles 2,500 km
Service ceiling 60,000+ ft 18,000+ m
Rate of climb 50,000 ft/min m/min
Wing loading lb/ft² kg/m²
Thrust/weight 0.63 lbf/lb 6.2 N/kg

 

[pbfoot]

F-101 out climb Lightning? Id like to see that...

initial climb rates for both aircraft are very similar both approx 50000ft/min
if not in favour of the voodoo plus the fact once the lightning used all that fuel in the climb it wouldn't be able to go very far for an intercept the lightning had no legs

 

[cheddar cheese]

Exactly, its an interceptor, it doesnt need to go far...