pbfoot
1st Lieutenant
both aircraft wer supposed to intercept nuke carrying bears etc with nuke weapons the further the bettercheddar cheese said:
Your favorite post-war aircraft
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cheddar cheese
Major General
A Lightning would be off the ground within a couple of mins from cold, I doubt the F-101 can match that, couple that to its superior climb rate and the fact that Britian isnt really that big, and you relaise that you dont really need the range, although it is useful...
I dont really have the knowledge of either plane to take this much further, where pD when you need him?
I dont really have the knowledge of either plane to take this much further, where pD when you need him?
pbfoot
1st Lieutenant
i worked atc for 12years at fighter bases and the 101 was from the sound of the scramble to fl350 in 5 was the norm pretty miuch standard for natocheddar cheese said:A Lightning would be off the ground within a couple of mins from cold, I doubt the F-101 can match that, couple that to its superior climb rate and the fact that Britian isnt really that big, and you relaise that you dont really need the range, although it is useful...
I dont really have the knowledge of either plane to take this much further, where pD when you need him?
pbfoot
1st Lieutenant
i dont know if you guys will accept this a reliable source but 1972 janes states for the lightning Mk55
time to operational height and speed of mach .9 (clean condition) 2 min 30 sec
but a further interesting fact is that it can attain mach 1 @ any altitude without burners
pilots used to say the 101 was the only a/c to do this but i can't verify this
time to operational height and speed of mach .9 (clean condition) 2 min 30 sec
but a further interesting fact is that it can attain mach 1 @ any altitude without burners
pilots used to say the 101 was the only a/c to do this but i can't verify this
evangilder
"Shooter"
I was looking into a couple of books as well and it looks like the first time the Lightining broke Mach 1 was on August 11, 1954. And he did that without the use of afterburners. The sources I have show the pilot as Roland Beaumont.
Fighter: The world's finest combat aircraft- 1914 to the present day Jim Winchester
Fighter: The world's finest combat aircraft- 1914 to the present day Jim Winchester
Of the too aircraft I like the Lightnign better.
cheddar cheese
Major General
Me too
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
"Beau" Beaumont was a hell of a pilot - got this from a site about test pilots...
Roland Beaumont was born on 10th August 1920. Educated at Eastbourne College he joined the Royal Air Force on the outbreak of the Second World War. He was sent to France where he flew a Hawker Hurricane and in 1940 took part in the Battle of Britain.
"In 1942 Beaumont began testing the Hawker Typhoon and in 1944 he achieved national fame in the fight against the V1 Flying Bomb. Beaumont downed more than 30 of them. Most were shot down but on several occasions he upset their flightpath by flying alongside at 450mph and tipping them over with the wing of his Hawker Tempest.
Beaumont began testing Britain's first jet aircraft, the Gloster Meteor, in 1944. However, he crashed while flying a Hawker Tempest over France in October 1944 and spent the rest of the war in a German prison camp.
After leaving the Royal Air Force in 1947, Beaumont joined English Electric and helped develop the Canberra jet bomber. Beaumont became the first British aviator to reach the speed of sound when he flew the P86 in California in 1948.
In May 1949 Beaumont, flying a Canberra jet bomber, completed the first ever one-day double crossing of the Atlantic. Five years later he became the first man to fly the supersonic English Electric P1 Lightning. Roland Beaumont died on 19th November 2001."
Roland Beaumont was born on 10th August 1920. Educated at Eastbourne College he joined the Royal Air Force on the outbreak of the Second World War. He was sent to France where he flew a Hawker Hurricane and in 1940 took part in the Battle of Britain.
"In 1942 Beaumont began testing the Hawker Typhoon and in 1944 he achieved national fame in the fight against the V1 Flying Bomb. Beaumont downed more than 30 of them. Most were shot down but on several occasions he upset their flightpath by flying alongside at 450mph and tipping them over with the wing of his Hawker Tempest.
Beaumont began testing Britain's first jet aircraft, the Gloster Meteor, in 1944. However, he crashed while flying a Hawker Tempest over France in October 1944 and spent the rest of the war in a German prison camp.
After leaving the Royal Air Force in 1947, Beaumont joined English Electric and helped develop the Canberra jet bomber. Beaumont became the first British aviator to reach the speed of sound when he flew the P86 in California in 1948.
In May 1949 Beaumont, flying a Canberra jet bomber, completed the first ever one-day double crossing of the Atlantic. Five years later he became the first man to fly the supersonic English Electric P1 Lightning. Roland Beaumont died on 19th November 2001."
Nice information Joe.
Yeap interesting.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Thanks! I saw a photo of him at the USAF Test Pilot school at Edwards AFB...
evangilder
"Shooter"
Good stuff, Joe. 8)
It was the P.1A it super-cruised but was not something the operational Lightnings could achieve. The P.1A was not yet called the Lightning, this was given to the P.1B, and the super-cruise was achieved with Siddeley Sapphire engines. It did achieve so on August 11th 1954, it's first flight was August 4th of the same year.
The P.1B first flew on April 4th 1957 with Avon turbojets with a crude after-burning system. The P.1B first exceeded Mach 2 on 25th November 1958 while under the name Lightning.
My father worked on 11 Sqdn. at RAF Binbrook in the early 70s, pbfoot, and he scrambled Lightnings on many occasions. He says achieving a scramble from bell to take off under two minutes was easy.
Time to operational altitude (40,000 feet), speed (Mach 0.87) and direction was two minutes. The Lightning T.55 was the old T.5 trainer from RAF service sold to Saudi Arabia.
It had a combat radius of 400 miles, more than enough for interception duties on the frontline. It achieved 50,000 feet in one minute, and could achieve a greater thrust to weight ratio at some point during it's climb.
The F-101 couldn't achieve super-cruise, in fact, the F-101 was an escort fighter and was never expected to be fast. It only achieved Mach 1.87 ...
The P.1B first flew on April 4th 1957 with Avon turbojets with a crude after-burning system. The P.1B first exceeded Mach 2 on 25th November 1958 while under the name Lightning.
My father worked on 11 Sqdn. at RAF Binbrook in the early 70s, pbfoot, and he scrambled Lightnings on many occasions. He says achieving a scramble from bell to take off under two minutes was easy.
Time to operational altitude (40,000 feet), speed (Mach 0.87) and direction was two minutes. The Lightning T.55 was the old T.5 trainer from RAF service sold to Saudi Arabia.
It had a combat radius of 400 miles, more than enough for interception duties on the frontline. It achieved 50,000 feet in one minute, and could achieve a greater thrust to weight ratio at some point during it's climb.
The F-101 couldn't achieve super-cruise, in fact, the F-101 was an escort fighter and was never expected to be fast. It only achieved Mach 1.87 ...
pbfoot
1st Lieutenant
what i'm trying to say from bells klaxon siren or buzzer 5 minutes from the alert to altitude which is probably about 35000 ft out the barn doors and to best operating altitude for type of a/c ....as for the barrier without burners that i gleaned from conversations with the crews ....the 101's were never used as an escort fighter that i'm aware of but either intercepter or recce.... the number of climb rate is most often stated as initial climb rate which peters out as you climb the 101 initial climb rate was 49780/fpm
From the bell to altitude, the Lightning would achieve it's operational rate in about four minutes. This would be from bell to 44,000 feet, direction and Mach 0.87 (cruise).
While I do not know of the operational usage of the F-101. I do know it was designed as a long range escort fighter. It was required to escort the B-36 and while the XF-88 project was almost cancelled, the Korean war showed the B-29 urgently needed an escort as it was lacking. The USAF told McDonald Douglas to quickly produce the escort fighter. The F-101A and F-101C were used in the 81st Tactical Fighter Wing. The F-101B was the interceptor variant of the F-101 and was, in U.S service, with the 60th Fighter Interceptor Squadron when first introduced.
Canada received 66 F-101s, which were a mixture of the F (trainer) and B (interceptor) variant. From your point, as a Canadian, all F-101s were interceptors.
I won't comment on the climb rate of the F-101 as I have yet to read a crediable source on the subject. On the internet sources range from 17,000 feet per minute to 60,000 feet per minute.
You'll have to provide more than "war stories" as proof that the F-101 can super-cruise, sorry.
:edit: The trainer was the TF-101B in U.S service. The F-101F was the modified F-101B for Canadian use. The TF-101F was the TF-101B modified for Canadian service. The Canadians designated the F-101F the CF-101B and the TF-101F was the CF-101F.
While I do not know of the operational usage of the F-101. I do know it was designed as a long range escort fighter. It was required to escort the B-36 and while the XF-88 project was almost cancelled, the Korean war showed the B-29 urgently needed an escort as it was lacking. The USAF told McDonald Douglas to quickly produce the escort fighter. The F-101A and F-101C were used in the 81st Tactical Fighter Wing. The F-101B was the interceptor variant of the F-101 and was, in U.S service, with the 60th Fighter Interceptor Squadron when first introduced.
Canada received 66 F-101s, which were a mixture of the F (trainer) and B (interceptor) variant. From your point, as a Canadian, all F-101s were interceptors.
I won't comment on the climb rate of the F-101 as I have yet to read a crediable source on the subject. On the internet sources range from 17,000 feet per minute to 60,000 feet per minute.
You'll have to provide more than "war stories" as proof that the F-101 can super-cruise, sorry.
:edit: The trainer was the TF-101B in U.S service. The F-101F was the modified F-101B for Canadian use. The TF-101F was the TF-101B modified for Canadian service. The Canadians designated the F-101F the CF-101B and the TF-101F was the CF-101F.
pbfoot
1st Lieutenant
My father worked on 11 Sqdn. at RAF Binbrook in the early 70s, pbfoot, and he scrambled Lightnings on many occasions. He says achieving a scramble from bell to take off under two minutes was easy.
not to ne a smart ass but are your war stories any different then mine my phone rang in sync with the buzzer with 416 and 409 sqns with 410 and 425 thrown in occasionaly with a seasoning of 106s from the us
not to ne a smart ass but are your war stories any different then mine my phone rang in sync with the buzzer with 416 and 409 sqns with 410 and 425 thrown in occasionaly with a seasoning of 106s from the us
Your "war stories" state that the F-101 can super-cruise. Such a claim would be documented and I've never seen it. The time from bell to altitude can be made with a little usage of intelligence when combining documented evidence and my father's numbers stated.
It is recorded that from brakes off to operational the F.6 Lightning could achieve 44,000 feet and Mach 0.87 as well as the right direct in just over two minutes.
My father says they could have the Lightnings off the ground in under two minutes. Which is easily believable to anyone that is willing to be reasonable. A remarkably simple calculation would predict that the Lightning would be at it's operational direction, height and altitude from bell in around four minutes.
The story of the F-101 being capable of super-cruise would certainly be available to me from either the internet or this book I have The encyclopedia of World Air Power by Bill Gunston. There's no mention of super-cruise in the F-101 information, while the Lightning has a shorter mention in the book yet it mentions the P.1A prototype achieved supercruise on August 11th 1954.
It is recorded that from brakes off to operational the F.6 Lightning could achieve 44,000 feet and Mach 0.87 as well as the right direct in just over two minutes.
My father says they could have the Lightnings off the ground in under two minutes. Which is easily believable to anyone that is willing to be reasonable. A remarkably simple calculation would predict that the Lightning would be at it's operational direction, height and altitude from bell in around four minutes.
The story of the F-101 being capable of super-cruise would certainly be available to me from either the internet or this book I have The encyclopedia of World Air Power by Bill Gunston. There's no mention of super-cruise in the F-101 information, while the Lightning has a shorter mention in the book yet it mentions the P.1A prototype achieved supercruise on August 11th 1954.
wmaxt
Staff Sergeant
I've heard repeatedly the first full production aircraft to supercruise is the F-22. While it's possible some aircraft could in certain circumstanses it certainly was not consistent.
wmaxt
wmaxt
That is also what I have heard. I think the F-22 was the first.
pbfoot
1st Lieutenant
the lightning was able to maintain super cruise at any without reheat according to my janes of 72 but according to my research i've been looking around a bit and found the 101 was able to maintain mach 1 witout burners but cannot determine if he needed burners to get mach got that info from www.f16.net is it true the lightning leaked like a sieve fuel wise while on ground
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