Your favorite post-war aircraft

F4D · Sep 24, 2005

Vanir left? Really? Well I guess he showed this site a thing or two!
Like what an ass he was...is?
I just read his exchange with you FBJ.

He lost me with the "MiG-21 absolutely annhiliates starfighters and dassaults of the day" thing.

Didn't the early MiG-21 have a problem with flame out while pulling g's?
Something about the loss of fuel feed?

Anyway... I won't miss him.

FlyBoy your a class act man.

I have a Question for Plan D.

If the F-14 took off in mile high Denver at the same time the Lightning took off at sea level...JUST KIDDING

JUST KIDDING!

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Sep 24, 2005

F4D said:
Post War to Nam? Is that what you are asking for JCS?

Where to start?...
F-86E and the Dog ship too
MiG-17 and 19
F-100
F-102 and F-106
B-36
B-47
B-58
C-133
Mirage III (Anyone else here old enough to remember watching the '67 Six Day War on TV? I remember seeing a Mirage III spinning down in flames and impacting on a valley floor. I don't think the the pilot made it out. It sent chills down my spine.)
Saab 29
A-6
A-1
F2H
F4D Skyray
F4D Phantom II
and on and on and on...

I always took it, it was about any post war aircraft up to today.

Mine favorites are the F-14, Mig-29, UH-1H, UH-60L, AH-1W, F-16, and the A-10.

FLYBOYJ · Sep 24, 2005

F4D said:
Vanir left? Really? Well I guess he showed this site a thing or two!
Like what an ass he was...is?
I just read his exchange with you FBJ.

He lost me with the "MiG-21 absolutely annhiliates starfighters and dassaults of the day" thing.

Didn't the early MiG-21 have a problem with flame out while pulling g's?
Something about the loss of fuel feed?

Anyway... I won't miss him.

FlyBoy your a class act man.

Thank you F4D! I really don't like to exchange like that but when you get a "wanna be" that is so incomprehensibly stupid, I just can't help to speak up!

And to answer your question about the MiG-21 flaming out, I heard the same story. It seems when you load the aircraft up, the fuel control looses efficiency. I've been around a later model MiG-21 BIS and the Russian test pilot we hired to fly it said the MiG-21 had some little "quirks" that could make it a very dangerous aircraft.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Sep 24, 2005

I think most earlier Migs did have quirks like that. Atleast that is what I have read.

F4D · Sep 24, 2005

Cool!

F4D · Sep 24, 2005

Cool!

Glider · Sep 24, 2005

Not for the first time I may be bucking the trend but I have always thought that the MiG21 was better than the Starfighter.
There is no doubting that the F104 is fast and climbed well but those small wings and high wing loading must have done its maneuverability no good at all.
I don't have any first hand experience with these but have read a fair bit on the MiG 21 and a bit on the F104. I admit also to have never reading anything about flaming out problems on the MiG 21. I am not saying that it didn't happen, but that isn't a unique problem in jets of that era.
Nearly all the articles that I have read praise the handling of the MiG21 and I find it hard to believe that it could be that bad considering the number of countries that bought it. India comes to mind here as its one of the few countries at that time that politically could have purchased anything from any country.
As for ease of handling, the F104 was no walk in the park and the accident rates in Europe were pretty high. I think its fair to say that all the early Mach 2 fighters were hot ships with the risks that went with it.

What sorts the reality from the theory is actual combat. As far as I am aware the only time the two met in Air to Air combat was in the 1971 Indian / Pakistani conflict. Both air-forces are well trained and were equipped with planes of similar potency.
The planes met in combat four times, not a lot I admit but facts are facts and the F104 lost on every occasion. The Pakistani pilots were experienced and senior pilots so it wasn't down to a lack of quality. It should also be noted that some of the Pakistani Pilots had flown the MiG 21 when acting as instructors in foreign air-forces so they certainly knew what they were up against . On this theme, Pakistan had been offered the MiG 21 before the war (albeit the early MiG21f) but decided to go for the Mirage instead. I don't know if they flew MiG 21's as part of the evaluation, but its fair to assume that they would have been given detailed briefings as a minimum by Russia as part of the offer.
Post conflict the Pakistani Air-force admitted that the MiG 21 had proved that it could easily out manoeuvre the F104. Also that the F104 was no faster at low altitude there being a couple of situations where the 104 was behind the MiG 21 but couldn't catch it. In September 1970 the US Government offered the Pakistani Air-force a package of supplies including additional F104's but this was turned down as the decision had been taken to phase out the F104 in favour of the Mirage.

As ever any comments welcome.

As an aside, my favourite early Mach 2 fighter would be the SAAB Draken. One of the best planes that never sold.

FLYBOYJ · Sep 24, 2005

Glider said:
Not for the first time I may be bucking the trend but I have always thought that the MiG21 was better than the Starfighter.
There is no doubting that the F104 is fast and climbed well but those small wings and high wing loading must have done its maneuverability no good at all.
I don't have any first hand experience with these but have read a fair bit on the MiG 21 and a bit on the F104. I admit also to have never reading anything about flaming out problems on the MiG 21. I am not saying that it didn't happen, but that isn't a unique problem in jets of that era.
Nearly all the articles that I have read praise the handling of the MiG21 and I find it hard to believe that it could be that bad considering the number of countries that bought it. India comes to mind here as its one of the few countries at that time that politically could have purchased anything from any country.
As for ease of handling, the F104 was no walk in the park and the accident rates in Europe were pretty high. I think its fair to say that all the early Mach 2 fighters were hot ships with the risks that went with it.

What sorts the reality from the theory is actual combat. As far as I am aware the only time the two met in Air to Air combat was in the 1971 Indian / Pakistani conflict. Both air-forces are well trained and were equipped with planes of similar potency.
The planes met in combat four times, not a lot I admit but facts are facts and the F104 lost on every occasion. The Pakistani pilots were experienced and senior pilots so it wasn't down to a lack of quality. It should also be noted that some of the Pakistani Pilots had flown the MiG 21 when acting as instructors in foreign air-forces so they certainly knew what they were up against . On this theme, Pakistan had been offered the MiG 21 before the war (albeit the early MiG21f) but decided to go for the Mirage instead. I don't know if they flew MiG 21's as part of the evaluation, but its fair to assume that they would have been given detailed briefings as a minimum by Russia as part of the offer.
Post conflict the Pakistani Air-force admitted that the MiG 21 had proved that it could easily out manoeuvre the F104. Also that the F104 was no faster at low altitude there being a couple of situations where the 104 was behind the MiG 21 but couldn't catch it. In September 1970 the US Government offered the Pakistani Air-force a package of supplies including additional F104's but this was turned down as the decision had been taken to phase out the F104 in favour of the Mirage.

As ever any comments welcome.

As an aside, my favourite early Mach 2 fighter would be the SAAB Draken. One of the best planes that never sold.

As much as I like the F-104, I have to agree!

Glider · Sep 25, 2005

Just been checking some of my records. I was impressed by one Flt Lt Maqsood Amir who managed to shoot down a Mig 21 after suckering the pilot into a low speed dogfight in an F86.
Some achievement.

cheddar cheese · Sep 25, 2005

Nice! 8) He took him out with the .50's?

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Sep 25, 2005

I might be wrong here but wasn't most of the air to air kills in Korea by guns?

FLYBOYJ · Sep 25, 2005

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:
I might be wrong here but wasn't most of the air to air kills in Korea by guns?

Correct, F-86s carried no missles

Glider said:
Just been checking some of my records. I was impressed by one Flt Lt Maqsood Amir who managed to shoot down a Mig 21 after suckering the pilot into a low speed dogfight in an F86.
Some achievement.

During the 71' war, Pakistan used the Saber well aganist many of the IAF fighters.

Glider · Sep 25, 2005

Agreed, but I bet he never thought that he would get a Mig 21.

evangilder · Sep 25, 2005

All comes down to piloting skills. Even a couple Phillipine pilots managed to down a couple of Zeros with P-26s! With the right conditions and circumstances, it can happen.

FLYBOYJ · Sep 25, 2005

Glider said:
Agreed, but I bet he never thought that he would get a Mig 21.

Neither did the guy in the Mig-21!

Gnomey · Sep 25, 2005

Glider said:
Just been checking some of my records. I was impressed by one Flt Lt Maqsood Amir who managed to shoot down a Mig 21 after suckering the pilot into a low speed dogfight in an F86.
Some achievement.

That is pretty amazing that he did get a Mig-21 with an F-86!

FLYBOYJ said:
Neither did the guy in the Mig-21!

I'm sure he didn't!

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Sep 25, 2005

evangilder said:
All comes down to piloting skills. Even a couple Phillipine pilots managed to down a couple of Zeros with P-26s! With the right conditions and circumstances, it can happen.

Agreed 100% with you there. Sometimes man can out perform the machine. Just sometimes.

evangilder · Sep 25, 2005

Yep, and sometimes if the pilot of the superior aircraft does not look at the inferior plane as a threat, well, he's hitting the silk.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Sep 25, 2005

Agreed. Underestimating your opponant has done more than eneogh of its share of pilots in.

F4D · Sep 25, 2005

Interesting.

India has officially claimed that in the 1972 war its MiG-21 had only 3 encounters with the F-104 and claimed 4 kills. With a total claim of nine F-104 Kills for the whole war, and that the total number of MiG-21 kills were 6 out of a total of 18 Air to Air kills and that of the 6 MiG's
lost only 1 was in Air to Air combat with the enemy but 1 shot down by another MiG-21 with the rest lost to ground fire.

Official PAF records show 3 F-104 losses total, one to ground fire.
In the IAF accounts it was stated that the first two fights each claimed one Starfighter both of them on Ground Attack Runs when shot down, the first at 100 feet above the Ocean surface

The last encounter took place at less than 1600 feet down to 150 ft and that these two kills were aircraft on loan from Jordan,possibly flown by Jordanian pilots who fired a sidewinder
in a head on panic attack.

The US provided only 12 F- 104 A's and Jordan loaned 10 F-104 A's still in desert camouflage during the war. By that time the IAF had built 100+ MiG's plus the ones provided by the USSR.
Five full MiG-21 Squadrons in the West and Three in the East. While the PAF had 1 F-104 squadron in total it being located in the West.

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