Your top 10 modern fighters

The fact being Sweden must be given huge credit for the Gripen no other country of its size even comes close to them in combat aircraft design . Very few countries are as capable as the Swedes in being self sufficient in combat aircraft they've stayed in the game much longer then most countries

Nonskimmer said:

That's a whole lot of Vipers.

Lanc and pb pretty much nailed it I think. The Gripen, like many Swedish weapons, was designed primarily with the defence of Sweden in mind. To that end, it fits the bill quite nicely. Ya gotta give the Swedes credit though. They design and build some class A stuff for themselves, and they certainly know what they need. The Gripen is a perfect example of that.

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pbfoot said:

The fact being Sweden must be given huge credit for the Gripen no other country of its size even comes close to them in combat aircraft design . Very few countries are as capable as the Swedes in being self sufficient in combat aircraft they've stayed in the game much longer then most countries

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Agree on both counts.....

Thing is every country on that list is a possible gripen buyer. can some one give me some numbers all i hear is that f16 got longer range and why would a country give a **** about range if thay want to defend? but no numbers, Finland bought f18 the fools hehe they had to pay so much more for that. Norway and Denmark is back in the race again, seems they are getting tired of waiting for a new fighter.

Agreed Joe and pbfoot. The Grippen is perfect for Sweden and other countries in a similar position but does not have the ability to do as many roles as the F-16. A lot of countries would want an aircraft that can do everything (similar to the F-16) rather than one that can only do one thing (the Grippen) and have to buy another one to forfill the other roles. It is not cost effective which is why more countries have bought the F-16 than the Grippen because the F-16 is a more cost effective aircraft than the Grippen.

I just heard some rumors so dont take it to serius, first it seems Austraila would be interesed in buying a gripen called supergripen with a new enging and the Eurofighter, gonna have to dig up some more on that so called supergripen.

Total JAS-39 'Gripen' orders/deliveries as of May 2006:

Swedish Air Force : 5 JAS-39 Prototypes; 107 JAS-39A; 15 JAS-39B; 50 JAS-39C; 13 JAS-39D. Total : 190.
Czech Air Force : 12 JAS-39C; 2 JAS-39D.* Total: 14
Hungarian Air Force : 12 JAS-39C; 2 JAS-39D.* Total: 14
South African Air Force : 19 JAS-39C; 9 JAS-39D.** Total: 28.

* Leased from Sweden/SAAB.
** Nine JAS-39D dual-seaters to be delivered 2006-2008. Nineteen JAS-39C to be delivered 2009-2011.

Taking the range issue to hand. South Africa had to fight the Bush War with the Mirage F.1 which had a maximum ferry range of 1160 NM. When fighting combat these aircraft were at the extent of their range, which greatly hampered the operational availability. The JAS-39C achieves a range of 1619 NM which admittedly is 459 NM further, which would have given them a much better roam time over the battlefield. Then, we take the F-16C/D which can fly 2,100 NM which would allow penetration into your opponents air space with great ease. And offence is the best defence.

How far could the JAS-39 carry two 2,000 lbs bombs and 2 AIM-9? The F-16 can carry that ordance 740 NM into enemy air space and still come home.

plan_D said:

opponents air space with great ease. And offence is the best defence.

How far could the JAS-39 carry two 2,000 lbs bombs and 2 AIM-9? The F-16 can carry that ordance 740 NM into enemy air space and still come home.

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BINGO!!!

ozumn said:

Thing is every country on that list is a possible gripen buyer.

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And they were too 30 years ago when Saab tried to sell the Draaken, a great plane for it's day with limitred of forigen sales...

ozumn said:

can some one give me some numbers all i hear is that f16 got longer range and why would a country give a **** about range if thay want to defend?but no numbers,

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I posted the range numbers for the F-16 earlier. The F-16, F/A-18 and Typhoon all have way longer legs than the Gripen - and I'm not even bringing the F-22 or F-35 into the picture!!!

Range means endurance - the longer you're in the air and the more ordanance yuo carry the better you're going to defend youself - what good is having the world's best interceptor when you only remain airborne for 20 minutes with AB?????

ozumn said:

Finland bought f18 the fools hehe they had to pay so much more for that.

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Fools? The bought a proven combat aircraft that has double the range and payload of the Gripen - evedently their military is seeing something the Swedish AF isn't. Here are the numbers just for clarification...

Specifications (F/A-18C Hornet)
General characteristics
Crew: 1
Unit Cost: $39.5 Million
Length: 56 ft 0 in (17.1 m)
Wingspan: 40 ft 0 in with wingtip missiles (12.3 m)
Height: 15 ft 4 in (4.7 m)
Wing area: 400 ft² (37.16 m²)
Empty weight: 24,700 lb (11,200 kg)
Loaded weight: 37,150 lb (16,850 kg)
Maximum Take-Off Weight: 51,550 lb (23,400 kg)
Powerplant: 2× General Electric F404-GE-402 turbofans, 17,751 lbf (79 kN) each
Performance
Maximum speed: Mach 1.7, 1,127 mph at 36,100 ft (1,814 km/h at 11,000 m)
Range: 330 mi combat on a hi-lo-lo-hi mission; 2,070 mi ferry (535 km / 3,330 km)
Service ceiling: 50,000 ft (15,000 m)
Rate of climb: 50,000 ft/min (254 m/s)
Thrust/weight: >1
Armament
Nine pylons – 2 wingtip, 4 underwing, and 3 fusalage, carrying up to 13,700 lb (6,215 kg) of missiles, rockets, bombs, fuel tanks, and pods
1x 20 mm M61 Vulcan internal gatling gun
Missiles:
Air-to-air: AIM-9 Sidewinder, AIM-120 AMRAAM, AIM-7 Sparrow
Air-to-ground: AGM-45 Shrike, AGM-65 Maverick, AGM-88 HARM, SLAM-ER, JSOW
Anti-ship: AGM-84 Harpoon
Bombs: CBU-87 cluster, CBU-89 gator mine, CBU-97 CEM, Paveway, JDAM, Mk 80 series, nuclear bombs.
Avionics
APG-73 radar

Compare them once again...

Specifications (JAS-39 Gripen)
General characteristics
Crew: 1-2
Length: 14.1 m (46 ft 3 in)
Wingspan: 8.4 m (27 ft 7 in)
Height: 4.5 m (14 ft 9 in)
Wing area: 25.54 m (274.9 ft)
Empty weight: 6,620 kg (14,600 lb)
Loaded weight: 8,720 kg (19,200 lb)
Maximum Take-Off Weight: 14,000 kg (31,000 lb)
Powerplant: 1× Volvo Aero RM12 (GE404) afterburning turbofan, 54 kN dry, 80 kN with afterburner (12,000 lbf / 18,000 lbf)
Wheel track: 2.4 m (7 ft 10 in)
Performance
Maximum speed: Mach 2
Range: 800 km (500 mi)
Service ceiling: 15,000 m (50,000 ft)
Rate of climb: m/s (ft/min)
Wing loading: kg/m² (lb/ft²)
Thrust/weight: 0.63
Armament
1x 27 mm Mauser BK-27 cannon
6x AIM-9 Sidewinder
4x AIM-120 AMRAAM or MICA
AGM-65 Maverick, KEPD 150, or various other laser-guided bombs, rocket pods.

ozumn said:

Norway and Denmark is back in the race again, seems they are getting tired of waiting for a new fighter.

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Time will tell to see if they buy the Gripen, in the mean time they still operate F-16s....

The the bottom line to this debut is FIGHTERS MAKE MOVIES, BOMBERS MAKE HISTORY.' If you're going to market a successful fighter in today's market, it better be able to do a number of things and one of those is to drop a lot of bombs!!!!

Ok, wait. The thing that should be said is that the SAAB Gripen is a great all round aircraft for those countries who can not afford the Russian, US and UK aircraft.

The Mirrage is one of the best aircraft I have ever seen, and people also said it sucks, because it can not perform as well as the US aircraft, does that make it crap? I think that the Gripen is a great aircraft for its price and for the stuff it can do and the systems it has in it.

I think the SAAF made the best deal when they bought the SAAB Gripen. The US aircraft are truly to expensive, but I must say they have lots of fancy sh*t in them.

Let me say this again guys, THE PILOT MAKES OR BRAKES THE DOGFIGHT NOT JUST THE AIRCRAFT. Your aircraft can do many fancy sh*t and go as fast as hell, but if you can not use every part and I mean every little part of your aircraft to the best of its capability's then you are screwed.

I will buy the Gripen and train my guys to use everything they can out of there aircraft and let them learn there own tragedy's. It is a great aircraft for what it can do and for its price, but I would not know compared to the F-16, I truly do not know, seeing is believing.

Henk

Sorry the F-16 speaks for itself. It wins hands down in my opinion over the Grippen.

The grippen is a good defence inteceptor and probably does that role over the F-16 but that is not really what the F-16 was designed for.

The F-16 does its job great and that is:

Dogfighter
Fighter Bomber
Recon
Ground Attack
Bomber
and the list goes on and on.

The Grippen has to do for Sweden what a number of aircraft do for the US.

Interceptor: F-15/F-22
Fighter/Fighter Bomber: F-16/F-18

You see in the end it does not matter. The Grippen would not stand a chance against the F-22 and probably not the F-15 because of the range of the F-15s radar. Besides what will 107 Grippens do to 2000+ F-16's? Not much.

Well our airforce is now over 2000 combat aircraft. The SAAF only bought so few aircraft to be able to build the rest ourselfs. The deal states that they must buy some aircraft and buy the rights to build it your self.

Well, I will still stick with the Mirrage and Gripen, they do what they should do. The F-16 is a great aircraft, but I think that so much is not needed to whip a**.

Henk

Henk you make valid points, especially with regards to costs and pilot and that's why many nations will go with something cheaper and opt for an "offset" program where they will ultimately build the aircraft themselves, and as you also say the pilot makes or breaks the aircraft, that centers around training and flight hours, a cost many contries cannot deal with...

Here's information about the RAF

http://www.rand.org/pubs/monograph_reports/MR1441/MR1441.appd.pdf

But as you say the pilot makes the aircraft - the SAAF did very well with it's Mirages against Angola, at the same time the Iraqi AF lost several of their's in A to A without even coming close to a kill....

In essence - if you could afford it, the F-16 is going to give you "more bang for your buck."

Well i cant stand this any more, Gripen is best modern fighter now and i dont care about bombs put them bombs on and see how good you can fight, and for now on im gonna call the f16 a bomber.

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:

Besides what will 107 Grippens do to 2000+ F-16's? Not much.

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107? and where would them 2000 f16 come from? if we talk war.

some random facts
Saab Gripen
Low-cost, low maintenance multi-role 4th generation fighter jet

Length: 14.1 m

Span: 8.4 m

Height: 4.5 m

Empty weight: 5700 kg

Normal take off weight: 8500 kg in fighter configuration

Payload: 5300 kg

Fuel, internal: 3000 litres approx

External: 3800 litres

Max take off weight: 14000 kg

Range: 3000 km ferry range

Max speed: M 1.15 (1400 km/h) at sea level, close to Mach 2 at altitude

Acceleration: M 0.5 to M 1.1 at low altitude in 30 s

Turn performance: 9 G sustained, G onset rate at least 6 G/s (1-9 G in 1.2 s), min -3 G, 20+ deg/s sustained, 30 deg/s instantaneous

Climb rate: <100 s from brake release to 10 km altitude 180 s approx to 14 km

Ground turn around: <10 min with a crew of six
Engine: Volvo Aero RM12 (developed from GE F404 with the changes being at least new fan, afterburner flame holder and accessories, partly to make it more suitable to a single engine aircraft)
Max thrust: approx 54 kN, 80.5 kN with reheat, airflow 68 kg/s, compression ratio 27.5:1, mass 1055 kg, overall length 4.04 m, diameter 0.884 m, inlet diameter 0.709 m

Radar: Ericsson PS-05/A pulse doppler radar (can count anchored ships and follow road traffic at at least 90 km and detect typical fighter sized targets at 120 km).

Total mass 156 kg, antenna assembly 25 kg, antenna diameter 0.600 m,
Max power consumption 8.2 kW (114/200V 400Hz AC) and 250 kW 28V.

Predicted MTBF: 170 hours (air operation) Cooling air: 85g/s at 0oC, Cooling liquid: 3.5kW to be absored. Electrical interface: MIL-STD-1553B data bus and fibre optic video output to the display system.

Air to air scanning at 60 (at first 50) deg/s in either 2 120 deg bars, 2 60 deg bars or 4 30 deg bars. Surface mapping and search across 5 x 5 km to 40 x 40 km with GMTI speed adjustable by the pilot.

Four basic air to air modes: Track While Search, Priority Target Tracking gives higher quality tracking for multiple targets, Single Target Track gives highest quality data, Air Combat Mode for short range search and automatic target capture.

Targeting pod: Litening, with FLIR and laser designation.

The Gripen's built-in armament consists of a single Mauser BK-27 27 millimeter cannon, housed in a fairing on the aircraft's belly, offset to left to the rear of the engine intake. Given the aircraft's relatively small size, it generally carries guided weapons to ensure maximum combat effectiveness.

Possible external stores include:
Air to air missiles (AAMs). The primary AAM is the Raytheon AIM-120 AMRAAM, and the Gripen's PS-05A radar can guide four of these weapons simultaneously. Sweden is the only nation approved by the US to perform flight tests of AMRAAM, and Swedish AMRAAMs have minor modifications to fit Swedish specifications. Other possible AAM stores include the French Matra Mica; the British Aerospace Sky Flash, built in Sweden as the "Rb-71"; and the Anglo-French MBDA ramjet-powered Meteor BVRAAM or German BGT IRIS-T AAM, now in development. IRIS-T is a short-range heat-seeking AAM with "off-boresight" capability. The Flygvapnet intends to obtain the IRIS-T to replace Swedish-built Sidewinders.

Antiship missiles, such as the SAAB RBS-15 turbojet-powered sea-skimming missile. A precision land-attack version of the RBS-15 is now in development.

Air to surface missiles, such as the Raytheon AGM-65 Maverick, built in Sweden as the "Rb-75", as well as the "BK (BombKapsel) 90 Mjoelnir" guided gliding submunitions dispenser, also known as "DWS-39". The Mjoelnir was developed by Daimler-Benz Aerospace (now part of EADS), with the Gripen as the first intended flight platform. Of course, dumb bombs and unguided rocket pods have been qualified as well.
The aircraft is controlled by a digital fly-by-wire (FBW) system with triple redundancy and an analog backup. The analog backup system provides a simple, reliable capability, and is automatically activated if two of the three digital FBW systems go down. The pilot can also activate the analog system with the push of a button. The Gripen was designed from the outset to use the FBW system, which was evaluated on a modified Viggen. The FBW system compensates automatically for the degree of instability built into the Gripen to increase its maneuverability. The FBW system also allows the aircraft to adapt to combat damage, for example using differential control of the canards to fly the aircraft if the ailerons are disabled.

The Gripen pilot can switch operational role in flight.

One Gripen can provide radar sensing for four of its colleagues, allowing a single fighter to track a target, while the others use the data for a stealthy attack. TIDLS also permits multiple fighters to quickly and accurately lock onto a target's track through triangulation from several radars; or allows one fighter to jam a target while another tracks it; or allows multiple fighters to use different radar frequencies collaboratively to "burn through" jamming transmissions. TIDLS also gives the Gripen transparent access to the SAAB-Ericsson 340B Erieye "mini-AWACs" aircraft, as well as the overall ground command and control system. This system provides Sweden with an impressive defensive capability at a cost that, though still high, is less than that of comparable systems elsewhere.

The Gripen can take off and land in less than 600 meters (2,000 feet). Once deployed to a road base, the Gripens are serviced by a ground crew of six, including one highly trained specialist and five minimally trained conscripts. A service team can refuel and rearm a Gripen in ten minutes. The Gripen features an auxiliary power unit (APU) to reduce its dependence on ground systems, and the fighter's onboard digital systems include "built-in self-test" capabilities that can download diagnostic data to a tech's laptop computer. Service doors to critical systems are at head level or lower, allowing easy access by technicians. Pilots using the Gripen flight simulators have performed simulated carrier landings, without an arresting hook; it seems a bit unlikely that this will ever be done in practice, however.

The operational cost of Gripen is 50 per cent lower than any other aircraft in its class that is currently, or planned to be, in service. It is twice as reliable and easier to maintain than its competitors.

Features under development for future Gripens include:
An electronically-scanned array (AESA) radar based on the PS-05/A, now being developed by Ericsson. An AESA consists of an array of programmable "transmit-receive (TR)" modules that can operate in parallel to perform separate or collaborative functions, performing, for example, jamming and target acquisition at the same time. The AESA will provide enhanced multimode capabilities, as well as extended range for beyond visual range missiles. It is scheduled for introduction in the 2005:2010 timeframe.

Improved defensive countermeasures, including new towed decoys and missile and laser warning systems.

The "OTIS" infrared search and track (IRST) system now under development by Saab Dynamics and being tested on a Viggen. OTIS will provide multiple modes for both air to air and air to ground combat.

The Thales "Guardian" helmet-mounted display (HMT), now being evaluated on the Gripen for cueing the IRIS-T and other smart weapons.
The Gripen's digital architecture makes software upgrades straightforward, at least as such things go. Possible software improvements include new radar and datalink modes; a new terrain-referenced navigation system; and a fully autonomous precision landing-guidance system. In the long term, SAAB is looking at a new engine, such as the General Electric F414 or a thrust-vectoring version of the EJ2000 engine used on the Eurofighter; conformal fuel tanks or a fuselage stretch for greater range; a wide-angle HUD; a binocular helmet-mounted display; a direct voice-command system; and an advanced missions support system

ozumn said:

107? and where would them 2000 f16 come from? if we talk war.

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Right here...........

Total F-16S delivered or on order as of 2005:

United States Air Force: 2507 (some sold to other countries)
United States Navy: 40

ozumn said:

Well i cant stand this any more, Gripen is best modern fighter now and i dont care about bombs put them bombs on and see how good you can fight, and for now on im gonna call the f16 a bomber.

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It's not invincible - it out classes the F-16 in air-to-air combat but its not an easy kill - even F-18s could take on the Gripen!!! That's the point. If the Gripen was so superior it would be able to take on 4 or 5 times its number and win - something the F-15 and F-16 has been able to do until recent times - now it's more like 2 and 3 to 1, Cope India proved that.

We haven't even brought up the F-22 or F-35 - both of them will befar superior to the Gripen or anything else fielded anywhere in the world - period!!!

ozumn said:

Well i cant stand this any more, Gripen is best modern fighter now and i dont care about bombs put them bombs on and see how good you can fight, and for now on im gonna call the f16 a bomber.

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Dont get your panties in a bunch because people dont agree with you. That is life!

Besides while the F-16 is bombing then the F-15s and F-22 will do the dog fighting and protect the F-16s. Then when the bombs are spent the F-16s will join in the fight.

ozumn said:

107? and where would them 2000 f16 come from? if we talk war.

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Well lets see the United States has over 2000 F-16s. And where would they come from well lets see there are bases in Germany like Rammstein and oh yeah I forgot about something the United States has hundreds of KC-135s and other refuelers that can refuel them in flight. Would not be a problem reaching the Grippens.

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:

Well lets see the United States has over 2000 F-16s. And where would they come from well lets see there are bases in Germany like Rammstein and oh yeah I forgot about something the United States has hundreds of KC-135s and other refuelers that can refuel them in flight. Would not be a problem reaching the Grippens.

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so you are talking about a war USA vs Sweden?

You stated "...if we talk war."[/i, Oznum. Providing you were offering the question seriously, Adler answered in kind. The U.S has over 2,000 F-16s. At this moment in time it's estimated that they'll be 246 JAS-39s come 2011.

I think the F-16 is winning a bit on sales. Even if you delete the sales to the U.S, it's still beating the Gripen by over a thousand. Calling the F-16 a bomber would just lead to embarassment on your part, as the F-16 is quite clearly a fighter. In an air-to-air configuration it's one of the most agile planes on the planet, and would be a hard kill for all it's contemperies. In air combat, you're going to be dead if you mistake a F-16 for a bomber ... just because it can drop bombs.