GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Would have been nice if you started your own thread to post this sh!t instead of ruining the original conversation...
Zyzygie’s Mumbles and Rambles
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- #662
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
You're free to do as you will (within reason) but common courtesy on a forum is to remain on topic (as much as possible) and this thread with all of it's detailed conversation was dedicated to the intrinsics of an encounter between the Meteor and Me262.
The derailing was bad enough that the Mods changed the name of the thread - that wasn't a compliment...
The derailing was bad enough that the Mods changed the name of the thread - that wasn't a compliment...
It's going to have taken a lot more than that. The Germans needed a fair amount of unobtanium to be able to get that many fighters operational at any given time, let alone the build up of fighters at bases being kept invisible from prying Allied photo recon aircraft. As I've said elsewhere here, the build up of German jets was kept a close eye on by British and US Intelligence and the Me 262's failure at being more prolific actually lessened Allied efforts to combat the type, as far as air raids against specific airfields and factories, not to forget the pressing of Allied jet fighters into service in Europe. I'm sure that had the Me 262 and Me 163, the latter of which was revealed to the Allies before the Me 262, been more prolific, the British and US could well have fielded jet fighter squadrons with the intent of hunting the '262s. The Allies weren't going to stand about and allow something so decidedly advanced just happen.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Not to mention that the US had other jets in the works besides the P-59 and P-80. There was the Ryan FR, Curtiss XF-15, McDonnel FD and the XP-83 plus Britain's Dh Vampire.
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- #667
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- #668
A good answer from Kupernic in post #690:
"A point on the Meteor's high speed snaking. This was a problem with all the early jet aircraft (Me 262, Meteor, P80)."
"It really has only one solution, the yaw damper."
"It can be regarded as a problem with all jet aircraft and particular with swept wing aircraft. It can lead to a nasty Dutch roll developing as one wing generates more lift on the side opposite to the yaw. This is complicated but one reason it is a problem in jet aircraft is the absence of a propeller which provided a gyroscopic force. The other, and main one, is inertia coupling. Jets tend to have mass distributed in such a way that the aerodynamic restorative forces are less compared to the moment of inertia of the aircraft. The Dornier Do 335 initially had a bit of a snaking problem due to the mass of the engines at the nose and tail distributing the mass like a dumbbell. Jets look more like a Do 335 than say a Spitfire or Me 109 since the aerodynamic force on these single engine piston aircraft looked like big mass followed by a wing and tail on a long tail moment arm. I daresay the P.39 had some interesting stability issues. The other is airframe tolerances. If one wing is slightly different to the other it will reach critical Mach ahead of the other and cause stability issues. Precision and high tolerances is essential in jets as are airfoils that have a high critical mach."
"The first yaw damper was developed by Dr Klaus Doebel in Germany in 1942. After the war he went to work with the RAE and helped develop a yaw damper that was installed on a Meteor. I believe it found its way into the Meteor F8 as standard."
"A electronic yaw damper had been developed that took gyro rate information and used the derivative to kick opposite rudder. The Hs 129 yaw damper was developed by Dr. Karl Doetsch over the period 1942- 1944 at Berlin-Aldershot. Later "due to the bombing" he was transferred to Travemunde near Lubeck, where the Fighter Development Station was formed, and here he finished the work around January 1945, on what became the world's first series coupled yaw damper. Doetsch first thought of the idea after observing the effect of a misuse of the simple rudder course controllers. If a heading change of more than 30° was dialled into these systems the demand limited and the system became just an angular rate control, giving a damping effect about the yaw axis. He first tested the concept himself in an Fw 190 and later in an Me262. He was interviewed by British scientists, joined the RAE and a similar device was installed in the meteor."
"If you look at this reference it seems that a simple version of Doebel's yaw damper may have been used as standard on the Hs 129 anti tank aircraft
http://www.icas.org/ICAS_ARCHIVE/ICAS1980/ICAS-80-0.4.pdf"
"See page 2 first paragraph:"
"A new use of automatic control in aircraft occurred in the early 1940's with the invention of the yaw damper. Dr. Karl Doetsch developed a gyro operated bang-bang servomechanism that drove an aerodynamic tab on the rudder to damp out yawing oscillations(U. It was first applied to a German Henschel He 129 attack bomber (Figure 4). The Hs 129 had a small vertical fin and high yaw inertia due to extensive armour plating which resulted in low aerodynamic damping. Dr. Doetsch's yaw damper provided artificial damping to improve its flying qualities."
"The Snaking on the Me 262 could develop above 480mph. With much effort it could often be gotten rid of by repeated flights and ground adjustment of balance and trim tabs. Factory test pilots for the Me 262 said some could fly at 560mph without a problem due to have a well-built airframe and having good engines. Many Me 262 were made in forest factories without jigs."
It should also be realised that the CAE reviewer was being paid to be critical about every little deficiency he could identify. For the pilots who would fly it into combat, it was essential to iron out everything before it was put into service.
The Me 262 could obviously not afford that luxury.
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- #669
Later today when I am on my laptop, not my phone, I will waste the lil time I have today to pull out the original information from the topic and move it to a new section so that anyone that wishes to discuss the actual intent of the topic can do so again. That will leave this thread strictly to his ramblings. And you are correct, it certainly was not a compliment.
Well scratch that.
i just start moving the older threads over to a new one that was more the original intent. He hijacked this thread good. I would have to sift through every single post and pull out individual posts.
I have a full time job, two small children, and working on a school research paper. I don't have time.
1. Z Zyzygie use this thread only for your offtopic ramblings. Do not take it to another thread.
2. Everyone else can discuss the original content in the other thread.
i just start moving the older threads over to a new one that was more the original intent. He hijacked this thread good. I would have to sift through every single post and pull out individual posts.
I have a full time job, two small children, and working on a school research paper. I don't have time.
1. Z Zyzygie use this thread only for your offtopic ramblings. Do not take it to another thread.
2. Everyone else can discuss the original content in the other thread.
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- #672
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- #673
On the face of it, the Me 262 seems to have difficulty in terms of budgeting of its time on maximum power rating:
From CFE Report:
Tactical Trials Meteor III - WWII Aircraft Performance
www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org › meteor › Meteor-CFE
From CFE Report:
Tactical Trials Meteor III - WWII Aircraft Performance
www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org › meteor › Meteor-CFE
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- #674
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
What Me262 was being tested in that comparison?
The Me262's service ceiling was well over 37,000 feet and a standard combat ready Me262A-1a (with a full loadout) had a RoC of 3,900 feet per minute.
The Me262's service ceiling was well over 37,000 feet and a standard combat ready Me262A-1a (with a full loadout) had a RoC of 3,900 feet per minute.
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- #676
It might well have gone to 37,000 but that's the figures I've got from CFE testing after the war.
With a max level speed of about 530 mph it should have been in reasonable condition:
Note allowance for throttling back to 16,000 rpm on incipient surging.
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- #677
I had accidentally attributed the development of he yaw damper in parts to Dr. Klaus Doebel instead of Dr. Karl Doetsch. I've fixed it in the original reference and the above requote.
Doebel was famous for tip jet powered helicopters not yaw dampers. The Yaw damper was well within the capability of WW2 technology. It wouldn't need any electronics though it would be better to use some audio grade vacuum tubes which by then were very reliable and long lived (25,000 hours). The kind of rate gyro technology was commonly used in gyro reflector sights and on the M4 Sherman's pitch stabilisation. The Yaw damper applied as a pitch damper to the Northrop YB49 flying wing would easily have dealt with its tiny pitch issue. Basically if a high yaw rate was detected a precision contact was closed and an electric motor acted on a trim tab till it stopped. The trim tab then wound back to its original position.
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- #679
Now that it's no longer named "Me262 vs Meteor one-on-one dogfight," we can open it up somewhat to make it a slightly more flexible and interesting blog. Not too broad though.
Maybe to include equipment and general technology associated with the fighters.
I'd be open to some suggestions. Make it constructive...
Maybe to include equipment and general technology associated with the fighters.
I'd be open to some suggestions. Make it constructive...
Hijacking a thread to the point it gets its name changed is nothing to be proud of.
