1/48 Spitfire Mk-11question [Revell]

Discussion in 'Painting Questions, Tutorials and Guidebooks' started by Maglar, Jun 29, 2009.

  1. Maglar

    Maglar Active Member

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    Alright so I snatched it up for like $12 the other day. The instructions say to paint the prop tip and underside "sky blue" yet the box pictures shows a sky gray. I have both colors, which one would be the correct color?

    (I've been stuck in this paint debate before with other kits, saying one color and displaying another) :|

    Thanks
     
  2. Wurger

    Wurger Siggy Master
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    Revell - Spitfire Mk.11 ???????????? There is something wrong with its mark I think.
     
  3. spit5

    spit5 Member

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  4. Wurger

    Wurger Siggy Master
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    #4 Wurger, Jun 29, 2009
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2009
    I think it is the kit Romek - Spitfire Mk.II. Because the model shows one of the early RAF camo schemes the colour for the spinner and undersides should be Duck Egg Blue.But the Sky type S can be as well.These prop tips should be yellow I think.

    http://www.hyperscale.com/2007/features/spitfireiiadd_1.htm
     
  5. Maglar

    Maglar Active Member

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  6. Tinplate58

    Tinplate58 Member

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    Wojtec.........the undersides were Sky------- Sky, Sky Type S, Duck Egg Blue and Duck Egg Green were all the same, officially "Sky" (Smooth).
    In 1940 the Royal Observer Corps started the "Duck Egg" names ,as Sky suggested a blue shade but was actually a pale green like a duck's egg.It was just a more descriptive term for spotters. Sky was officially adopted in Air Ministry Order A.926 12/12/40....but still using more than one title-----
    "....the following classes of aircraft are to be produced with duck-egg blue (Sky Type S ) undersurfaces....."
    Spitfire Mk. IIs were delivered in the Temperate Land Scheme , Dark Green, Dark Earth and Sky with (added) Sky spinners and fuselage bands.

    Nick
     
  7. Maglar

    Maglar Active Member

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    Very informative Nick, but why do these sites show a sky gray when you just pointed out it is supposed to be a shade of blue?
     
  8. Wurger

    Wurger Siggy Master
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    #8 Wurger, Jun 29, 2009
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2009
    I don't think so. I have had these both colours of the very old Humbrol series called the authentic one.The difference between these two paints is really almost unvisible.But The Duck Egg Blue tonality is almost white when the Sky S-type is much more greenish and slightly darker.More over these paints were used at the same time before the Sky type S became the major one.

    It is not easy to show all colours using computer displays, colour-prints etc correctly, especially in the past.It always depends on capabilities of printing devices. That's way there can be a few incorrect tonalities of the same colours.
     
  9. antoni

    antoni Banned

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    #9 antoni, Jun 29, 2009
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2009
    All DTD 308 cellulose and DTD 314 synthetic surface finishes used for camouflage had the Type S suffix, Type S, for smooth, distinguishing them from normal matt paints. They were developed because the smoother finish would be less detrimental to performance than the rougher pure matt paints. For some reason the Type S suffix became solely applied in publications and documents to Sky. When researchers first began looking at these documents and orders (about the 1960s) they mistook this to mean that Type S must be a type of Sky. This led Messers Bunkum and Claptrap to invent such nonsense as Sky Type S being a later, lighter version of Sky.

    The new colour (in 1940) became known popularly by many descriptive names – ‘Duck Egg Green’, ‘Duck Egg Blue’, ‘Pale Green’, ‘Pale Blue’ – all were used at some time. Duck Egg Blue became the most common used in official documents and the popular press. This led to the two gentlemen’s belief that Duck Egg Blue was a different but related colour to Sky.

    There is no Teutonic thoroughness in MAP orders and specifications, more typically British amateurism. Colloquial terms are used freely and rarely are store references or such like given. Only when something totally new is introduced like Ocean Grey to they bother to tell anyone what it is and where to get it.

    DTD Specification 83A quotes duck egg blue but this is not an indication that it existed as a separate shade to Sky. The same document also references ‘black’ and ‘silver’, both popular names for the official colours Night and Aluminium. However, Sky was something unfamiliar and evidently there was some confusion in the use of the different names for it. With there also being two different colours both called Sky Blue (BS 381 1930 Sky Blue – a medium duck egg blue shade and AM Sky Blue – best described as a powder blue) and a Sky Grey available it’s no wonder. In the Admiralty Supplement to DTD 83A the following paragraph appears:

    ‘Appendix para 4 (ii). In order to clarify the position of the colour of undersides with this order and the camouflage drawings which will shortly be issued, it should be noted that duck egg blue and Sky Type S are one and the same colour.’


    Because Sky was a new colour there was a shortage when it was first introduced leading to a number of colours being substituted. These included BSS 381 (1930) Eau de Nil, described as a rich Duck Egg Green and archaeological evidence indicates that it had a gloss finish, and BSS 381 (1930) No1 Sky Blue which archaeological evidence also indicates had a gloss finish.

    The issue of AMO A.926/40 on 12 December 1940 ordered RAF Day Fighters to, ‘… carry an 18 inch band of duck egg blue (Sky Type S) right around the fuselage, immediately forward of the tailplane, and have the airscrew spinner painted duck egg blue (Sky Type S).”


    No 3 MU Milton, the main supply depot for aircraft finishes seems to have been subject to a high demand for Sky paint. On 18 December 3 MU sent a signal to RAE Farnborough (where paints and camouflage colours were developed) “Your item 33B ref not known Sky. Demand M7338 follows. State whether for metal or fabric. Also which shade of Sky Blue Grey etc. Issuing ref 33B 191 and 262”.

    So six months after Sky was supposedly introduced into widespread use 3 MU did not have a stores reference number for it and the question as to which shade of Sky Blue or Grey implied they did not know that Sky was a colour in its own right. The final sentence reveals what they were issuing in its place. 33B/191 was the stores ref for a 5 gallon tin of Dark Earth to DTD 308 cellulose but makes no sense in the context of the message. However, 33B/291 was the stores ref for Sky Blue to DTD 314, a synthetic paint suitable for application on wood or metal. So allowing for a typographic error made by a signaller, it appears that Sky Blue was being issued to squadrons to mark up their aircraft with tail bands and coloured spinners. 33B/262 was the stores ref for a 5 gallon tin of light grey primer which was intended to be used under light colours on the under sides of aircraft. Check out some of the Hurricanes in On Target Profiles 12.

    You can read the Air Min orders here Code Development_P

    where you will see that Sky is most often called duck egg blue (Sky type S).

    Sky Grey, introduced in 1939, was intended for use on the under surfaces of FAA aircraft in the Sea Temperate Scheme.
     
  10. Airframes

    Airframes Benevolens Magister

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    In simplified terms, on the Spitfire MkII (Mark Two), for this parerticular scheme, the spinner and the rear fuselage 'FighterID' band should be finished in Sky, more than likely supplied by most model paint companies as 'Sky Type S', or the equivalent. This, as both Antoni and Wojtek have indicated, is the shade that leans towards a green hue, and actually looks like a whitish cream colour. Since the demise of Humbrol as we knew them I have normally mixed my own shade, using matt white, a spot of yellow, and a spot of blue, until it looks more or less right!!
    For some strange reason, very few kit manufacturers are able to supply decal code letters in the correct shade, as I've seen bright green, an almost buff colour, cream, greyish green -all sorts!
     
  11. Maglar

    Maglar Active Member

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    So such a paint does exist, I think I will use my sky gray for it. It resembles it close enough. :)
     
  12. lesofprimus

    lesofprimus Active Member

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    Maybe put a drop of green into ur sky gray Maglar???
     
  13. Maglar

    Maglar Active Member

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    Well heres my sky gray in effect. It looks a little white, but we cant argue pigments here. I might put a drop of green..
     

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  14. Airframes

    Airframes Benevolens Magister

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    Yep, I'd add a small spot of either green, blue or yellow. U.S. Sky Gray was actually a substitute for British 'Sky' on the General Motors built Avengers, but it is more grey than the creamy colour of sky. If you can wait a day or two, I'll post a coiple of pics of the real colour, on actual aircraft and models, to show how the hue can vary slightly, but more importantly, to show the sort of shade we're talking about.
     
  15. Maglar

    Maglar Active Member

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    Sure, I haven't even started the kit yet, wont be awhile. But im not doling out $4 for "Sky type S".
     
  16. Wurger

    Wurger Siggy Master
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    I agree with Terry. Here a few shots of my old Spitfires Mk.II painted with the Humbrol authentic paint series.The difference between Sky type S ( on left side) and Duck Egg Blue ( on right side) can be seen even now after 20 years.
     

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  17. Airframes

    Airframes Benevolens Magister

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    You don't need to Mag. Once you see the actual shade(s), you'll be able to see that it's easy to mix from existing colours. Coincidentally, I've just bought a tin of 'Sky', the first time in at least 15 years ! But I know I'll need a fair amount in the future for a couple of builds, unlike the odd spot for spinners and tail bands, which I mix. Guess what? Got home from the LHS, put the tin in my paints box - right next to an unopened tin that must have been there 15 years or more!!
     
  18. Airframes

    Airframes Benevolens Magister

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    Ah! Wojtek must have been posting as I was! There you go Mag, the one on the left is what you're aiming for if possible, but the one on the right is equally accurate.
    Thanks Wojtek, you've saved me a job my friend!
     
  19. Maglar

    Maglar Active Member

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    Thanks Woj, I might actually buy type S now that I might do more RAF aircraft. Still, just a simple shade is in no call of a argument over which is right. This thread had information regarding what color through historical facts and its a smidge different. No one was able to tell on my P40.. but thanks guys, I learned quite a bit through articles / pictures.
     
  20. Wurger

    Wurger Siggy Master
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    Undoubtedly our posts have criss-crossed Terry.No problem and you are welcome old bean..:D


    Mag...The problem with tonalitis of colours is that they could look really different being applied on surfaces that were prepared for painting or not.A primer colour, a kind of material on which a paint was applied, time of usage, problems with supply etc.. could make these paints different looking in many ways.So there is no problem if you use the Sky type S or Duck Egg Blue because it is possible the paint could be changed due to reasons mentioned earlier.
     
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