1/48th Mitchell II - Allied Advance and Defense of the Reich WWII.
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Crimea_River
Marshal
My oh my. And yet you persist in giving Humbrol your business!
Hope this all works out Terry. There seems to be a compatibility issue and I wonder if the flat coat has some lacquer in it. I had the same happen to me when I applied Testors Flat Coat, thinned with lacquer, over Future. Though I did this successfully on a few occasions before that, it did happen once, and I never did it again. Seems to be sensitive to the ratios.
Hope this all works out Terry. There seems to be a compatibility issue and I wonder if the flat coat has some lacquer in it. I had the same happen to me when I applied Testors Flat Coat, thinned with lacquer, over Future. Though I did this successfully on a few occasions before that, it did happen once, and I never did it again. Seems to be sensitive to the ratios.
- Thread starter
- #623
Airframes
Benevolens Magister
If I could get a proven, reliable range of enamel paints, and particularly varnishes that work, other than Humbrol, from my local shop, I would, even after 50+ years of using the once reliable Humbrol products.
But as Iris doesn't have room for another paint rack, I have a choice of either Humbrol enamels and acrylics, or Tamiya acrylics - and I don't really like acrylics, apart from clear coats.
The only other option is buying on-line / mail order, and I do have a stock of Xtracolor enamels, plus the MM paints you gave me Andy.
The main need though is the varnishes. Since the change to the new formula Johnson's 'Klear' (as Future is called in the UK), I've had to try virtually every varnish I could obtain easily, and thought I'd solved the problem when Humbrol introduced their acrylic clear coats.
The gloss varnish is fine, very like the'old' Klear / Future in use, and I thought my prayers had been answered when they introduced a matt and a satin version.
Presumably the matt is the same basic stuff as the gloss, but with a matting agent added, but just why it behaves as it does really is puzzling, and one would expect it to be compatible, and indeed it is described as such in all the 'blurb' from Hornby Products.
It would be nice to be able to use a matt clear straight from the bottle, knowing it will work, as the old oil-based varnishes did, instead of b*ggering about mixing and testing each 'home made' batch, but if that's the only way to get the desired finish, without ruining hours of work and weeks of research, then so be it.
One thing's for sure, Hornby will be getting a very long, illustrated e-mail sometime early next week !
But as Iris doesn't have room for another paint rack, I have a choice of either Humbrol enamels and acrylics, or Tamiya acrylics - and I don't really like acrylics, apart from clear coats.
The only other option is buying on-line / mail order, and I do have a stock of Xtracolor enamels, plus the MM paints you gave me Andy.
The main need though is the varnishes. Since the change to the new formula Johnson's 'Klear' (as Future is called in the UK), I've had to try virtually every varnish I could obtain easily, and thought I'd solved the problem when Humbrol introduced their acrylic clear coats.
The gloss varnish is fine, very like the'old' Klear / Future in use, and I thought my prayers had been answered when they introduced a matt and a satin version.
Presumably the matt is the same basic stuff as the gloss, but with a matting agent added, but just why it behaves as it does really is puzzling, and one would expect it to be compatible, and indeed it is described as such in all the 'blurb' from Hornby Products.
It would be nice to be able to use a matt clear straight from the bottle, knowing it will work, as the old oil-based varnishes did, instead of b*ggering about mixing and testing each 'home made' batch, but if that's the only way to get the desired finish, without ruining hours of work and weeks of research, then so be it.
One thing's for sure, Hornby will be getting a very long, illustrated e-mail sometime early next week !
Night Fighter Nut
Master Sergeant
Looks like it might be salvageable. Wow, what a bit of rotten luck. 
Shame about the decals Terry! Otherwise looks good so far!
- Thread starter
- #627
Airframes
Benevolens Magister
Thanks Hugh.
Wojtek, I used the matt varnish neat, just as I use the gloss, as it's 'airbrush ready'. I also experimented using a small amount of iso alcohol, but no difference.
I've used the Humbrol gloss clear mixed with Tamiya Flat Base before, without problems.
When the matt clear was first applied, it dried without any chalky deposits, even after two or three hours. However, next morning it looked as seen in the photos.
I'm leaving the model until tomorrow afternoon, when I'm back from the second half of the 60th Birthday party, then I'll spray it with the gloss/FB mix.
Wojtek, I used the matt varnish neat, just as I use the gloss, as it's 'airbrush ready'. I also experimented using a small amount of iso alcohol, but no difference.
I've used the Humbrol gloss clear mixed with Tamiya Flat Base before, without problems.
When the matt clear was first applied, it dried without any chalky deposits, even after two or three hours. However, next morning it looked as seen in the photos.
I'm leaving the model until tomorrow afternoon, when I'm back from the second half of the 60th Birthday party, then I'll spray it with the gloss/FB mix.
I grasped. It seems tha the thinning mix could have been the reason for. Undoubtedly the clear coat didn't dry fully in these couple of hours and got it in the next morning at last. Some of dampness and hot or cold in the air caused the white deposit appearing.
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- Thread starter
- #630
Airframes
Benevolens Magister
That might be the case Wojtek, but there were also small areas of 'chalky' patches after the first coat, virtually immediately. This shouldn't happen, especially after the bottle had a good shake, and had been stirred for at least five minutes.
For a varnish to be so unpredictable is totally unacceptable - it is advertised as ready to use - and I feel that it is being sold when it is not fit for purpose.
If someone like me, an experienced modeller (and artist) with 50+ years of experience using various varnishes, has problems, what will it be like for , say, a young modeller, applying the varnish by brush ?!!
This range of clear coats is advertised and promoted by Humbrol (Hornby Products) as being easy to use, self-leveling etc, drying with a clear, uniform finish (which is true of the Clear Gloss), so it should be expected to perform as advertised.
Over the last twenty years or so, I have mixed my own matt clear coat, and although it involves some experimenting and testing, for each mix, to arrive at the desired finish, it works, and does not leave a chalky deposit when mixed at the correct ratio.
If I (or any other modeller) can do this, then I'd expect that a company such as Hornby should be able to source a matt clear coat that works equally as well, each time, every time, without having to undertake any special procedures, apart from the normal stirring etc.
So far, I have invested around 80 hours of my time (probably more) getting the model to its current state, and if it wasn't for the years of experience I have, other modellers in a similar position might consider their efforts wasted, and the model ruined. all because of a poor quality product, used at this late stage.
I do accept that incorrect preparation and / or use of the product could lead to a less than perfect finish. where the matting agent hasn't fully dissolved into the carrier, but, having noted the settling and separation of the matting agent and carrier when the bottle was left for some time before use, I took particular care in ensuring that the bottle had first, a good, long shake, and second, ensured that it was stirred for at least five minutes, in order to mix the matting agent and carrier.
The poor results, with the chalky and cloudy finish, are what I would expect to see if the varnish had not been stirred at all, and this is very similar to another varnish I tried, from the Xtracrylic range, where, even after following the product instructions to the letter, regarding thinning ratio (for this product) and type of thinner, the finish was partly cloudy and also showed areas of chalky deposits.
I think that perhaps, if used on a very large area, such as a car door, or in household use, the clouding etc would not be noticed, but on the small, scale areas of a model, it is highly visible, Maybe Hornby have bought in an 'off the shelf' product designed for use by artists, for example, where it wouldn't be a problem as a finish coat on a large canvas?
If so, then they need to look again, and understand the differences between this and the needs of the scale modeller.
Bottom line is, I thought that I had at last found a ready to use matt clear coat that would perform the same as the gloss coat, but this isn't the case, so I have to revert to my previous method of mixing my own, when at least I will know that any problems will be of my own making.
For a varnish to be so unpredictable is totally unacceptable - it is advertised as ready to use - and I feel that it is being sold when it is not fit for purpose.
If someone like me, an experienced modeller (and artist) with 50+ years of experience using various varnishes, has problems, what will it be like for , say, a young modeller, applying the varnish by brush ?!!
This range of clear coats is advertised and promoted by Humbrol (Hornby Products) as being easy to use, self-leveling etc, drying with a clear, uniform finish (which is true of the Clear Gloss), so it should be expected to perform as advertised.
Over the last twenty years or so, I have mixed my own matt clear coat, and although it involves some experimenting and testing, for each mix, to arrive at the desired finish, it works, and does not leave a chalky deposit when mixed at the correct ratio.
If I (or any other modeller) can do this, then I'd expect that a company such as Hornby should be able to source a matt clear coat that works equally as well, each time, every time, without having to undertake any special procedures, apart from the normal stirring etc.
So far, I have invested around 80 hours of my time (probably more) getting the model to its current state, and if it wasn't for the years of experience I have, other modellers in a similar position might consider their efforts wasted, and the model ruined. all because of a poor quality product, used at this late stage.
I do accept that incorrect preparation and / or use of the product could lead to a less than perfect finish. where the matting agent hasn't fully dissolved into the carrier, but, having noted the settling and separation of the matting agent and carrier when the bottle was left for some time before use, I took particular care in ensuring that the bottle had first, a good, long shake, and second, ensured that it was stirred for at least five minutes, in order to mix the matting agent and carrier.
The poor results, with the chalky and cloudy finish, are what I would expect to see if the varnish had not been stirred at all, and this is very similar to another varnish I tried, from the Xtracrylic range, where, even after following the product instructions to the letter, regarding thinning ratio (for this product) and type of thinner, the finish was partly cloudy and also showed areas of chalky deposits.
I think that perhaps, if used on a very large area, such as a car door, or in household use, the clouding etc would not be noticed, but on the small, scale areas of a model, it is highly visible, Maybe Hornby have bought in an 'off the shelf' product designed for use by artists, for example, where it wouldn't be a problem as a finish coat on a large canvas?
If so, then they need to look again, and understand the differences between this and the needs of the scale modeller.
Bottom line is, I thought that I had at last found a ready to use matt clear coat that would perform the same as the gloss coat, but this isn't the case, so I have to revert to my previous method of mixing my own, when at least I will know that any problems will be of my own making.
- Thread starter
- #632
Airframes
Benevolens Magister
I agree. the only reason I use acrylic varnishes, is to avoid the 'yellowing' associated with most oil-based varnishes.
I still sometimes use an enamel clear gloss, but for matt finishes, I changed to acrylic, as the only matt varnish that I found didn't 'yellow' with age, was discontinued, probably due to EU regulations concerning its contents !
I'm actually thinking of reverting back to using enamel or polyurethane matt varnish, on colours where 'yellowing' will not be as noticeable, this model being a good example.
I still sometimes use an enamel clear gloss, but for matt finishes, I changed to acrylic, as the only matt varnish that I found didn't 'yellow' with age, was discontinued, probably due to EU regulations concerning its contents !
I'm actually thinking of reverting back to using enamel or polyurethane matt varnish, on colours where 'yellowing' will not be as noticeable, this model being a good example.
- Thread starter
- #634
Airframes
Benevolens Magister
I haven't seen that one, apart from the bottle in question which is causing the problem, which is acrylic, and is the matt equivalent to the bottle of gloss varnish I sent you.
Note that there are no problems with the gloss, which works very well, although it mostly needs more than one coat to achieve a high gloss finish, especially if sprayed.
Note that there are no problems with the gloss, which works very well, although it mostly needs more than one coat to achieve a high gloss finish, especially if sprayed.
- Thread starter
- #636
Airframes
Benevolens Magister
Ah, I wasn't aware of that type.
I might give it a try, although the acrylic gloss is working fine - it's a good matt varnish i really need.
I might give it a try, although the acrylic gloss is working fine - it's a good matt varnish i really need.
- Thread starter
- #637
Airframes
Benevolens Magister
OK, I think I might have rescued the situation.
The model was given another coat of gloss clear, which eliminated most of the cloudy and white areas, new decals have been applied for the damaged fin flash, and one of the upper wing roundels, and those areas which stubbornly remained 'chalky' have been re-touched.
I'm going to leave the model for a few more hours and, if the paint is fully dry and hardened, I'll then mix and test a new matt finish, made from the Humbrol gloss clear and Tamiya Flat Base, and spray this onto the model.
Meanwhile, I'm about to start work on scratch-building the entrance hatch covers / ladders, and the dorsal turret interior bits and pieces.
If the hatches don't work out to my satisfaction, then I'll use the moulded parts from the B-25J kit, and build that kit with closed hatches, when i get around to doing it.
I might have some pics later tonight.
The model was given another coat of gloss clear, which eliminated most of the cloudy and white areas, new decals have been applied for the damaged fin flash, and one of the upper wing roundels, and those areas which stubbornly remained 'chalky' have been re-touched.
I'm going to leave the model for a few more hours and, if the paint is fully dry and hardened, I'll then mix and test a new matt finish, made from the Humbrol gloss clear and Tamiya Flat Base, and spray this onto the model.
Meanwhile, I'm about to start work on scratch-building the entrance hatch covers / ladders, and the dorsal turret interior bits and pieces.
If the hatches don't work out to my satisfaction, then I'll use the moulded parts from the B-25J kit, and build that kit with closed hatches, when i get around to doing it.
I might have some pics later tonight.
- Thread starter
- #639
Airframes
Benevolens Magister
Thanks my friend.
No pics yet, as there's nothing much to show. The clear coat and paint on the model, although dry, hasn't quite hardened enough to my satisfaction, so I'll delay spraying the matt clear coat until tomorrow. Meanwhile, I've started on the first stage of panting the landing gear and wheels, and have begun the initial work on the entrance hatches.
If there's something worth showing tomorrow, i'll post pics then.
No pics yet, as there's nothing much to show. The clear coat and paint on the model, although dry, hasn't quite hardened enough to my satisfaction, so I'll delay spraying the matt clear coat until tomorrow. Meanwhile, I've started on the first stage of panting the landing gear and wheels, and have begun the initial work on the entrance hatches.
If there's something worth showing tomorrow, i'll post pics then.
fubar57
General
Brutal Terry. Hope things work out
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