1:72 Lioré & Olivier LeO 451
- Thread starter CATCH 22
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Crimea_River
Marshal
That should pretty up a room.
Totalize
Tech Sergeant
Nice progress on a little known bomber. Interesting.
- Thread starter
- #64
Back again.
During the last few days I performed a few "plastic surgery procedures" which I'll try to describe in my next posts. What you'll see is maybe not that important from a modelling point of view and could be left unchanged (as many of the modellers did with this model), but for me it was quite amusing to search for and find the historical and technical answers.
PART I. - SIX LITTLE WINDOWS
When you look at a LeO 45 (451 in my case) you'll see 6 little windows on the right side of the fuselage, behind the cockpit door with the round window:
They are rather small and positioned in different heights. I mentioned earlier, there is a "corridor" connecting the cockpit (pilot) with the rear gunner position on this side of the a/c. To have the higher windows placed there is not bad but why are the last two so low (in fact under the gunner's seat)? And why is the area around all windows so smudged (you can see this in many photos)? Dirty fingers?
On some photos you'll notice those windows are maybe open/operable:
The lowest one (at the very left) and the third one are obviously closed/glazed, but the rest are open. O.K., this is a crashed plane and the windows could be broken or missing...
And then I saw another crashed plane and got some ideas:
Where the guy steps is the second window; the first (lowest) one is closed, the rest are open. Is it possible that these are not windows but steps, like the one below:
Then I found another photo:
This is the lowest step/handhold/window. The second is closed and it appears to be glazed. Based on the similarity with steps/grips on many fighters I think I got it - the windows can open and close on a horizontal pivot (bottom of opening) and can be used as a climbing support. The next photo shows it clearly:
One of my sources tells me, the crew was using a rope and a ladder (coming out of the right wing root) when entering the plane. Note how the top "windows" are closed:
The small windows were also handholds to help them climb into the cockpit. This explains the dirty smudged areas around the openings as well.
In later passenger/cargo versions of LeO 45 (below model 453) a metal handrail was attached in the same height to help the passengers to enter the plane without using a rope:
The bigger windows in the photo above are real windows added later, but the smaller 6 are the same as on LeO 451.
After checking some French modeller sites I found threads where people are discussing the idea that the 2 lowest openings are not windows or that only the 2 highest windows were glazed etc. A good example for such discussion is this forum or this forum. Unfortunately the guys there did not come to a conclusion are those windows or handholds. In fact they are both. The next photo is from the first aforementioned forum and shows exactly how the window opens and closes:
1. shows one of the top 3 windows in open position. One can clearly see that when it was pushed from the outside it opens (rotates) and can be used as a handhold.
2. shows the next lower window in closed position. The frame and glass nicely fit in the opening making the glass flush with the outer skin.
Again, the photo is from this forum.
I call such detail Art deco style.
And now back to the model. IMHO the windows are not very well represented by Heller/Smer, being too big and the upper 3 not being in one line:
Looking at the photos above they are 2.5-3 times bigger (in area) than the original. I don't have their exact dimensions but could measure them from a drawing in 1/72. The model windows were by 0.5-0.7 mm bigger in both directions. So I added some plastic "shims" 0.5mm thick:
"Shaved", sanded and polished them and even sprayed some primer. Here is the end product (I need to clean the edges of the openings to make them appear sharp):
There are transparent parts for all windows and I could simply glue the transparencies, sand and polish them flush with the fuselage and then paint over, creating smaller openings. I'm not sure I'll use the transparent parts at all - I'll probably leave all windows open or "close" 2-3 of them with white glue. We'll see.
Cheers!
During the last few days I performed a few "plastic surgery procedures" which I'll try to describe in my next posts. What you'll see is maybe not that important from a modelling point of view and could be left unchanged (as many of the modellers did with this model), but for me it was quite amusing to search for and find the historical and technical answers.
PART I. - SIX LITTLE WINDOWS
When you look at a LeO 45 (451 in my case) you'll see 6 little windows on the right side of the fuselage, behind the cockpit door with the round window:
They are rather small and positioned in different heights. I mentioned earlier, there is a "corridor" connecting the cockpit (pilot) with the rear gunner position on this side of the a/c. To have the higher windows placed there is not bad but why are the last two so low (in fact under the gunner's seat)? And why is the area around all windows so smudged (you can see this in many photos)? Dirty fingers?
On some photos you'll notice those windows are maybe open/operable:
The lowest one (at the very left) and the third one are obviously closed/glazed, but the rest are open. O.K., this is a crashed plane and the windows could be broken or missing...
And then I saw another crashed plane and got some ideas:
Where the guy steps is the second window; the first (lowest) one is closed, the rest are open. Is it possible that these are not windows but steps, like the one below:
Then I found another photo:
This is the lowest step/handhold/window. The second is closed and it appears to be glazed. Based on the similarity with steps/grips on many fighters I think I got it - the windows can open and close on a horizontal pivot (bottom of opening) and can be used as a climbing support. The next photo shows it clearly:
One of my sources tells me, the crew was using a rope and a ladder (coming out of the right wing root) when entering the plane. Note how the top "windows" are closed:
The small windows were also handholds to help them climb into the cockpit. This explains the dirty smudged areas around the openings as well.
In later passenger/cargo versions of LeO 45 (below model 453) a metal handrail was attached in the same height to help the passengers to enter the plane without using a rope:
The bigger windows in the photo above are real windows added later, but the smaller 6 are the same as on LeO 451.
After checking some French modeller sites I found threads where people are discussing the idea that the 2 lowest openings are not windows or that only the 2 highest windows were glazed etc. A good example for such discussion is this forum or this forum. Unfortunately the guys there did not come to a conclusion are those windows or handholds. In fact they are both. The next photo is from the first aforementioned forum and shows exactly how the window opens and closes:
1. shows one of the top 3 windows in open position. One can clearly see that when it was pushed from the outside it opens (rotates) and can be used as a handhold.
2. shows the next lower window in closed position. The frame and glass nicely fit in the opening making the glass flush with the outer skin.
Again, the photo is from this forum.
I call such detail Art deco style.
And now back to the model. IMHO the windows are not very well represented by Heller/Smer, being too big and the upper 3 not being in one line:
Looking at the photos above they are 2.5-3 times bigger (in area) than the original. I don't have their exact dimensions but could measure them from a drawing in 1/72. The model windows were by 0.5-0.7 mm bigger in both directions. So I added some plastic "shims" 0.5mm thick:
"Shaved", sanded and polished them and even sprayed some primer. Here is the end product (I need to clean the edges of the openings to make them appear sharp):
There are transparent parts for all windows and I could simply glue the transparencies, sand and polish them flush with the fuselage and then paint over, creating smaller openings. I'm not sure I'll use the transparent parts at all - I'll probably leave all windows open or "close" 2-3 of them with white glue. We'll see.
Cheers!
Last edited:
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
Cool story. A mystery and history.
Now that's interesting...!
I thought they were handhold, but not windows also. Great info!
Crimea_River
Marshal
Yep, it was actually my first thought as well. Excellent research and references and well done on the model results.
great result
A SCNASE technical drawing of these six small windows called them "rampe d'accès", these handles were glazed with a plexiglass hinged shutter 4 mm thick. The aperture size in the skin was 80 x 130mm.
- Thread starter
- #73
Thank you guys!
I must apologize for my late answer but I'm having (again) troubles with my computer and cannot access the internet resp. copy photos from my archive etc. This will delay the posting of my next reports.
Waroff, thank you so much for your input. Judging by the nickname you are the Conseiller technique from the French forum (Fightersforum) I was quoting in my previous post. The photo from the inside of the LeO I reposted is yours as well.
As per the dimensions you posted the openings should be 1.11x1.81 mm in 1:72. My new revised openings (measured on the model) are 1.0x1.7mm or I'm by 0.11mm smaller in both directions which is pretty close. I still can sand a bit of the edges on the inside of the openings to clean them and come as close as possible to the original size (without going into madness).
You mentioned a SNCASE technical drawing in your post - do you have access to it? All drawings I collected are in scale but without any proper measurements. The only original drawing I could find on the net is the one with the camouflage pattern.
I intend to write (when my PC is back) about the discrepancies between the lengths of the real production a/c and the model and why is the model length wrong. All my assumptions are based on the technical specs of LeO 45 and visual comparison between the model and several drawings in 1/72. If you have any original drawings with the main dimensions of the a/c, please feel free to correct me or add more details.
Did you by any chance know Phillippe de Lespinay?
Cheers!
I must apologize for my late answer but I'm having (again) troubles with my computer and cannot access the internet resp. copy photos from my archive etc. This will delay the posting of my next reports.
Waroff, thank you so much for your input. Judging by the nickname you are the Conseiller technique from the French forum (Fightersforum) I was quoting in my previous post. The photo from the inside of the LeO I reposted is yours as well.
As per the dimensions you posted the openings should be 1.11x1.81 mm in 1:72. My new revised openings (measured on the model) are 1.0x1.7mm or I'm by 0.11mm smaller in both directions which is pretty close. I still can sand a bit of the edges on the inside of the openings to clean them and come as close as possible to the original size (without going into madness
).You mentioned a SNCASE technical drawing in your post - do you have access to it? All drawings I collected are in scale but without any proper measurements. The only original drawing I could find on the net is the one with the camouflage pattern.
I intend to write (when my PC is back) about the discrepancies between the lengths of the real production a/c and the model and why is the model length wrong. All my assumptions are based on the technical specs of LeO 45 and visual comparison between the model and several drawings in 1/72. If you have any original drawings with the main dimensions of the a/c, please feel free to correct me or add more details.
Did you by any chance know Phillippe de Lespinay?
Cheers!
fubar57
General
Great sleuthing Yves
- Thread starter
- #75
Thanks Geo!
Let's continue with another observation.
PART II - THE TALE OF TWO TAILS
When looking at al those photos of LeO 45 one will soon start finding smaller or bigger differences, depending on what exactly is depictured. Just a month or two ago I didn't know anything about this beautiful a/c and couldn't distinguish the different variants. (On a side note, thanks God this is not a B-25 with 8 variants and gazillion of modifications
).Now let's check photos of the prototype known as LeO 45-01:
This is the prototype with Hispano-Suiza 14 AA engines, NACA cowlings and small oval fins. One can clearly see the short, stumpy end of the fuselage.
The same a/c with extended air intakes and modified fins. Note the same short end of fuselage.
This is the final modification of the prototype with Gnome-Rhone 14 engines and Mercier cowlings. The fins are the same as above as is the fuselage end. A better view from above shows it:
Let's check a mass produced a/c:
One can easily see that the end of the fuselage is more elongated and pointy, The fins of the early production models are the same as those of the late prototype. Another visible difference is the framing of the glazed nose - compare with the photos above.
If we check the tails side by side, here is what we'll see:
Prototype
Production model
The above 2 photos show the elevators in the same position and it's easy to figure out that the distance from the trailing edge of the elevator to the end of the tail is different. The small "pipe" at the end of the production model tail is a landing light.
Later on the existing LeO 451 have been modified, receiving new twin fins and rudders with a bigger area:
Those have been tested for the first time in March 1940 and became standard for all subsequently manufactured a/c.
Even later variants (e.g. LeO 453, 455) with more changes, different engines etc. retained the same pointy tail:
Now let's check is there any difference in the dimensions of the prototype vs. production models.
The first and oldest original dimension I could find was published in the catalog for the 16-th Air Salon in Paris 1938 - check the attachment to my Post #8:
The wingspan is 22.50m and the length is 16.80m.
A second table with specifications shows the dimensions/specs of the future (in project) bomber before the mass-production started:
The wingspan is 22.51m and the length is 16.81m. The difference of 1cm in the latter dimensions compared to the ones before is neglectable, but of interest is the BIG difference between the heights: from 4.50m to 5.70m!!! 1.20meters (4') difference! I'm not sure if the height was measured in the same way though.
The third table is with the dimensions of the production a/c:
The wingspan is 22.52m and the length is 17.17m. Aha! The long tail shows its presence. (The differences in the heights are irrelevant for me and the model at that point.)
The above 2 tables are from LEO 45, AMIOT 350, et autres B4, Docavia 23
And the same data in English for those who like the imperial system:
The above table is from Aircraft Profile No. 173: The Lioré et Olivier LeO 45 Series
To summarize the above information in one sentence: there is a difference of 37cm (14.6") between the lengths of the prototype and the serial production LeO 45. In scale 1:72 it's 5.14mm (0.2").
Let's compare the model with a drawing of a production a/c in 1:72:
Surprise! The model is too short!
Unfortunately I have only one original drawing of LeO 451 and it's not dimensioned. I put it into AutoCAD (my biggest helper in the matter of re-sizing drawings, measuring from old documents etc.) and this is what I got:
In fact the fuselage contour matches (almost) perfectly the outline of all side views of LeO 451 I could find, but the tail is too short by ca. 5.6-6mm (in scale 1:72). Do we have a prototype's body packed as a serial production model? I'll continue with this question in the next part.
Cheers
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Crimea_River
Marshal
Great study of this bird.
- Thread starter
- #78
PART III - PLASTIC SURGERY: THE BODY
Relatively early in my research I was lucky to find a set of drawings for the original Heller model by its designer Philippe de Lespinay - check this article.
The internet copy of the above drawing has no scale but thankfully all views are on one sheet and in one and the same scale. Since the wingspan of the original a/c was known to me (22.50 resp. 22.52m) I had a start point. Here is what I found:
The fuselage was obviously based on the prototype's length (short tail) and not on the production a/c's length (long tail). The fuselage parts match the drawing (it was made for them!), but they are too short for a standard bomber. Below is a comparison between the two dimensions in 1/72.
I already mentioned that having too many and too different drawings to work with was a bad idea. I had to revise my initial work (see empennage for example), just because of inconsistent data. From a certain point on I decided to use only one set of drawings for comparison - the very good set of multiple views from the book "Liore et Olivier LeO 451" by Jean-Michel Meunier.
A big THANK YOU! to Capt. Vick
for helping me with these drawings.
A comparison between the model and the 2 different fuselage types as per the above book is shown below:
Short body (prototype):
Long body (standard bomber):
At that point the idea to cut the body and correct the length came to my mind. I started searching the internet for similar ideas, at least to be sure that I'm not the one who tries to invent the wheel again. Among all modelling blogs, WIPs in forums etc. I found only 2 (!) modellers who did the "surgery": check this build and this build @ Britmodeller.com.
The rest of the modellers I could find (+ 30) didn't do the "beauty job".
My very first idea was to simply add some plastic to the short tail and give it the form of the long one. Pretty clean and easy.
Of course I had to move the cut out for the empennage and the doors for the rear wheel well too. Was this easier?
I decided to cut between 2 panel lines (check the drawing above, the wider area):
Glued a sheet of plastic to the bigger part, cut multiple times its other end to easily form a cone, marked the missing length on the white plastic and glued the rest of the body onto it. Everything was done on a flat base so the body doesn't warp in any direction.
I hate using fillers or epoxy for bigger areas/gaps - they never look the same as the surrounding plastic or maybe I can't do it right. For that reason the gap was filled with white plastic only(0.3 and 0.5mm) in 2 layers. The thickness of the fuselage wall was not consistent around the cut and the added plastic was thicker in some areas. Sanding solved the problem. Now I have a nice stretched/elongated body for my LeO:
And it matches the drawings:
I must only rework the stubby tail to a more pointed one and add the landing light, but this will be done after the fuselage halves are glued together.
For now I'll say: Mission accomplished!
Cheers!
Relatively early in my research I was lucky to find a set of drawings for the original Heller model by its designer Philippe de Lespinay - check this article.
The internet copy of the above drawing has no scale but thankfully all views are on one sheet and in one and the same scale. Since the wingspan of the original a/c was known to me (22.50 resp. 22.52m) I had a start point. Here is what I found:
The fuselage was obviously based on the prototype's length (short tail) and not on the production a/c's length (long tail). The fuselage parts match the drawing (it was made for them!), but they are too short for a standard bomber. Below is a comparison between the two dimensions in 1/72.
I already mentioned that having too many and too different drawings to work with was a bad idea. I had to revise my initial work (see empennage for example), just because of inconsistent data. From a certain point on I decided to use only one set of drawings for comparison - the very good set of multiple views from the book "Liore et Olivier LeO 451" by Jean-Michel Meunier.
A big THANK YOU! to Capt. Vick
for helping me with these drawings.A comparison between the model and the 2 different fuselage types as per the above book is shown below:
Short body (prototype):
Long body (standard bomber):
At that point the idea to cut the body and correct the length came to my mind. I started searching the internet for similar ideas, at least to be sure that I'm not the one who tries to invent the wheel again. Among all modelling blogs, WIPs in forums etc. I found only 2 (!) modellers who did the "surgery": check this build and this build @ Britmodeller.com.
The rest of the modellers I could find (+ 30) didn't do the "beauty job".
My very first idea was to simply add some plastic to the short tail and give it the form of the long one. Pretty clean and easy.
Of course I had to move the cut out for the empennage and the doors for the rear wheel well too. Was this easier?I decided to cut between 2 panel lines (check the drawing above, the wider area):
Glued a sheet of plastic to the bigger part, cut multiple times its other end to easily form a cone, marked the missing length on the white plastic and glued the rest of the body onto it. Everything was done on a flat base so the body doesn't warp in any direction.
I hate using fillers or epoxy for bigger areas/gaps - they never look the same as the surrounding plastic or maybe I can't do it right. For that reason the gap was filled with white plastic only(0.3 and 0.5mm) in 2 layers. The thickness of the fuselage wall was not consistent around the cut and the added plastic was thicker in some areas. Sanding solved the problem. Now I have a nice stretched/elongated body for my LeO:
And it matches the drawings:
I must only rework the stubby tail to a more pointed one and add the landing light, but this will be done after the fuselage halves are glued together.
For now I'll say: Mission accomplished!
Cheers!
Last edited:
fubar57
General
We like Jim
