#1 American Killer, ETO???

[Anonymous]

What it would mean is that future generations would, most likely, change their last names. How many Hitler's, Goering's, or Capone's have you met?

This means a person committing such acts is effectively cut off from the memories of their descendants. The thought of such a fate may deter individuals in the future, or at least make them think twice before participating in such acts. And this is worth the minor costs to a few individuals who must either change their last names or live with public knowledge that their ancestors were evil.

I'm not saying we should punish the descendants in any way, just that the individuals who commit such acts should be remembered and vilified appropriately. That may have some minor consequences for their descendants, but that's the breaks. Had their ancestors succeeded in their endeavors, they would not have had a second thought about enjoying the benefits that befell them, that's for sure!

=S=

Lunatic

 

[evangilder]

Okay, now that makes sense. I agree that those who perpetrated these acts should be remembered for the bad things they did as a reference for what NOT to do.

 

[Erich]

Nonskimmer, your thoughts on Germany still hold water for the 75-90 plus age group whether here or in Deutschland. Very common logic for some. Germany should of been blown off the face of the earth and also should of Japan, not with 2 atomic/atom bombs, but a systematic pulverization if you will............. I have some real issues with former pres. FDR but won;t bore you with that.

 

[Nonskimmer]

Erich, I can assure you they are not my thoughts on Germany.
I was stating an example based on a certain kind of logic, nothing more.

 

[Anonymous]

Nonskimmer, your thoughts on Germany still hold water for the 75-90 plus age group whether here or in Deutschland. Very common logic for some. Germany should of been blown off the face of the earth and also should of Japan, not with 2 atomic/atom bombs, but a systematic pulverization if you will............. I have some real issues with former pres. FDR but won;t bore you with that.

Ummm... don't you mean Truman? FDR died on April 12, 1945, before VE day.

I cannot see why you'd have "issues", both the German and Japanese people were treated better after the war than they had any right to expect. Unless perhaps you are of the opinion that the male population, or some proportion of it, should have been taken out and shot?

=S=

Lunatic

 

[Erich]

I've got some real interesting evidence against our former pres with his rasist views and pro Soviet leanings............Hoover it is not

 

[Erich]

I meant Trumann, entschuldigung bitte

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

i don't think they should be put there if they were ordered to............

It depends on how heinous the acts were. I don't care if the Japanese soldiers were ordered to kill all the men and rape and kill all the women in Nanking or not. Nor do I think it's relevant that the German soldiers were ordered to take jews, including the elderly and children, and shoot them in the back of the head and bury them in a ditch in Poland. Such acts are unforgivable and having been "ordered" to do them is no excuse. If we accept such excuses, then only the actual leader (Hitler or Hirohito) could ever be considered actually responsible.

Furthermore, it defeats the point. The point is to say to posterity that if you commit such acts, even if ordered to do so, you and your descendants will have to live with the shame of your actions.

"I was ordered to do it" is not an acceptable justification. It cannot be!

=S=

Lunatic

I completely disagree with you. How can you ask the descendants to carry the burdon. Basically you are saying that I and all of my family should be labeled Nazis and pay for what has happened. because my Grandfather served in the Wehrmacht. He did not commit any crimes but he seved in a military that was. If this is what you are meaning then you are a hippocrat, ignorant and filled with BS. Then you need to pay for the Native Americans and the Slavary. But you have already forgotten about that too haven't you? You can not ask todays generation to pay for wrongs done in the past. My family as long with every German family I know are good people and mean no harm to anyone, yet you think they should be condemded forever? Get real man, and before you condemn Germany and Japans modern generation think of your own past.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

What it would mean is that future generations would, most likely, change their last names. How many Hitler's, Goering's, or Capone's have you met?

This means a person committing such acts is effectively cut off from the memories of their descendants. The thought of such a fate may deter individuals in the future, or at least make them think twice before participating in such acts. And this is worth the minor costs to a few individuals who must either change their last names or live with public knowledge that their ancestors were evil.

I'm not saying we should punish the descendants in any way, just that the individuals who commit such acts should be remembered and vilified appropriately. That may have some minor consequences for their descendants, but that's the breaks. Had their ancestors succeeded in their endeavors, they would not have had a second thought about enjoying the benefits that befell them, that's for sure!

=S=

Lunatic

Sorry I made that other post before I read this one. I agree with you that the people who commited acts should be remembered and shamed and shunned for entire history. If they are alived they should be found and punished dearly, but I disagree with you on the punishing of descendents. Especially descendents that were born after the war was over. Why punish them they had nothing to do with it. Custers descendents (to be honest I dont know if he even has any) are not being punished for the massacres of the Native Americans (and mind you him and his troops were told to do so also which does not change anything). Do you see my point, the later Generations can not change what was done nor did they have anything to do with it.

 

[Anonymous]

I completely disagree with you. How can you ask the descendants to carry the burdon. Basically you are saying that I and all of my family should be labeled Nazis and pay for what has happened. because my Grandfather served in the Wehrmacht. He did not commit any crimes but he seved in a military that was. If this is what you are meaning then you are a hippocrat, ignorant and filled with BS. Then you need to pay for the Native Americans and the Slavary. But you have already forgotten about that too haven't you? You can not ask todays generation to pay for wrongs done in the past. My family as long with every German family I know are good people and mean no harm to anyone, yet you think they should be condemded forever? Get real man, and before you condemn Germany and Japans modern generation think of your own past.

No, I'm saying if your Grandfather served in a unit known to have committed atrocities at the time when they committed the atrocities, then his name should bear the shame of his behavior. If his descendants feel shame for his acts, that is up to them.

It is not a matter of asking today's generation to pay for past mistakes, it's a matter of disgracing those who committed those mistakes fully and completely. Part of that, perhaps the biggest part, is to have their descendants dishonor them.

As for our own past, more and more we are showing the lack of honor in the 7th Cavalry. In the 50's and 60's, Custar and his hoard were portrayed as hero's, today they are portrayed as villains. The incident at Wounded Knee was portrayed as a battle, now it is portrayed as the massacre it was. I would agree, these men's names should also be on such a wall of shame. As for slave owners, that is probably simply going back to far for such a thing to be on a wall of shame. Very few Southerners actually owned slaves and most families that did are well identified and have to live with that shame if they can be referenced to those ancestors.

I do not think the modern generations should be condemned forever. But condemning the behavior of someone's ancestors is not condemnation of the descendants, it's just an unpleasantness they have to live with. Look for example at Arnold Schwartzenaguer - his father was a member of the SS, this is public knowlege, but he was still elected Govenor of California. What the descendants should not be able to do however, is to present their ancestors as honorable men if they were not.

If a wall of shame is not going to be created for past evil-doer's (and it's not), one should be created for the present and the future. People will think twice about en aging in massacres and such if they believe their descendants will have to live with the shame of their acts.

=S=

Lunatic

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I really dont think anyone today presents any anscestors that may have committed terrible acts as heros or as honorable men. I dont see this happening anywhere or by anyone. I have an uncle who was in the Waffen SS. I do not know if he committed acts nor will I ever ask him nor do I ever wish to ask him because I know him today as the great man that he is, the man who is carrying, kind and honorable. So as far as I am concerned in his case the past is the past. I hope and pray that he never did anything wrong or dishonorable but I do not wish to ask or find out. I hope you dont see that is a crime, and if you do well to be honest I dont care. Please dont take me wrong I too believe that people who committed acts like this are not human and should be condemned for life and pay for there sins but I do not believe in judging or condemning a future generation. As for my Grandfather even if he was in a unit that did such things, as long as he did not commit them I dont think he should have to answer for anything. What would have been able to do, stand up and say somthing? If he had he would have been most surely killed. But as for my Grandfather I know he did not. He was a civilian Doctor when the war started. He was searching for cures to Tuberculosus (which ultimatly killed him later in life). He as drafted into the Wehrmacht in 1940 and made a medical officer. He was captured in Stallingrad and spent the rest of the war in a Soviet POW camp until 1945 when luckily he was transfered to an American POW camp and was put on trial at the Nurnburg Trials because he was doctor and all military doctors were put on trial. He was found innocent as he was and was allowed to return home. Not that it really matters this story but I think it is an interesting WW2 story. Anyways I do not disagree with you that they should go unpunished or condemned but I just think the modern generations need to be left out of it, especially since I am one of the modern generations of Germans.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Les is correct, lets look at what the so-called mild mannered reproter has done since 9-11 over in Iraq.,,,, true brought us reality in grim form when we enetered Baghdad, shooting up anything that looked suspicious but then whate happened to the support these noble lads gave our boys ?

Hmmmmmmm abu grave as i call it. The bak lash with the one Marine when he shot the guy "faking" death, all recorded, and the news clown was ballsy enough to include everything he could on the soldier, his unit, CO and the whole incident for all the world to see and give the military a terrible name. It has been in our face since we entered Baghdad, even slowly but surely capturing that turd "Sadamn", isolated certain black guard units and also smashing "Al-quesida" from time to time. So much for the media promoting a will of good from our side and the fredom we are trying to present for these poor Iraqui people. I remember Vietnam all too well, and it is really hard I will say to differentiate between the north/south Vietnamese just as Eagle would probably say, Iraqui, Iranian and Syrian, lebanese. you can't tell even with the dress of the locals, and out of countrymen. You are always on the go, intense, covering your back and your buddies 24/7. It's terrible and it sucks, and it's war........

ok I am ranting....I have conflicting opinion's of our move in the mid-east but we are over there now and we need to do our best to get things under control under this administration and support our guys 1000 %. If we don't do this then we are just slime as we were back in the late 1960's-early 70's when Nixon called us all home.....with a job unfinished

yo Huh ~ Erich

You are absolutely correct. You can not tell who your enemy is or who is friendly. You have to constantly be alert and on the go. Each and Everytime my aircraft has been engaged by small arms fire, rockets, SA missles or RPG's it was buy people dressed like farmers or simple people in a field pretending to be farming and these people are everywhere so you never know who you are engaging or who wants to kill you. It is actually quite frightening.

 

[Nonskimmer]

Christ.
I hope you continue to stay safe, buddy! Good luck!

 

[Medvedya]

People will think twice about engaging in massacres and such if they believe their descendants will have to live with the shame of their acts.

=S=

Lunatic

Yeah right. That is a stupendously naive hope.

But aside from that, I've just been reading through all of the above, and found I could draw a parallel with my great-grandfather, who fought in the Boer War.

Do I deny that we created the very first concentration camps in that conflict and that many Boer woman and children died in them?

Emphatically not! I studied the conflict a while ago in a history module, and like to feel I have a reasonable and unbiased grasp of the causes and effects of that conflict.

Its relationship to my personal family history is tenuous at best however. Regardless of the questionable nature of the Boer War, he went out there as a Corporal in the East Lancs Regiment. He wasn't a General, or a politician, or a business executive. He just went and did his bit and was lucky enough to get to come home. So, I'm not going to be chucking his medals or ammo bag in the dustbin anytime soon, and no, I don't 'live with shame'. I'm actually rather proud of him.

Incidentally, afterwards he joined the St. Johns Ambulance, and would treat people who were unable to pay for the doctor, which would suggest he was more into patching people up than killing them.

But you can't put that sort of thing on a spreadsheet can you?

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Hey I am short timing it here in Iraq now! I made it a whole year without a scratch I am going to make it home!

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

People will think twice about engaging in massacres and such if they believe their descendants will have to live with the shame of their acts.

=S=

Lunatic

Yeah right. That is a stupendously naive hope.

But aside from that, I've just been reading through all of the above, and found I could draw a parallel with my great-grandfather, who fought in the Boer War.

Do I deny that we created the very first concentration camps in that conflict and that many Boer woman and children died in them?

Emphatically not! I studied the conflict a while ago in a history module, and like to feel I have a reasonable and unbiased grasp of the causes and effects of that conflict.

Its relationship to my personal family history is tenuous at best however. Regardless of the questionable nature of the Boer War, he went out there as a Corporal in the East Lancs Regiment. He wasn't a General, or a politician, or a business executive. He just went and did his bit and was lucky enough to get to come home. So, I'm not going to be chucking his medals or ammo bag in the dustbin anytime soon, and no, I don't 'live with shame'. I'm actually rather proud of him.

Incidentally, afterwards he joined the St. Johns Ambulance, and would treat people who were unable to pay for the doctor, which would suggest he was more into patching people up than killing them.

But you can't put that sort of thing on a spreadsheet can you?

I agree with you fully. I know full hand that my Grandfather did not committ any attrocities in WW2 but I am not ashamed that he served in the German Army and am very proud of him and will never throw away his uniform or his medals and awards that my Grandmother gave me.

 

[evangilder]

Have you got your short-timer calendar displayed proudly?

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Oh I sure do, and I love walking around with my patch on so people know that I am one of the ones going home and have not just gotten hier.

 

[evangilder]

How many days until the "bag drag"? If you can't answer that because of OPSEC, it's cool.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I really cant tell you because of OPSEC and also because I am not sure. We have a date given but it all depends on what happens in the elections.