10 Allied planes that sealed Nazi Germany's fate

[FlakDancer]

It is/was a very interesting project that always seemed so close to being realized and would have been a major player if all had gone well with its development. However, once in involved in a shooting war what may be ironed out eventually may just not be workable in a combat sitution Luftwaffe Resource Center - A Warbirds Resource Group Site - Focke Wulf Fw 187

 

[Aozora]

What did the Fw 187 do to contribute? Kill one? Now there's a keeper ... at least it was a Spitfire ... respectable if nothing else.

Even more respectable; on 29 April 1944 a Bf 110G-4 nightfighter of Stab./NJG1, flown by Major Jabs shot down two Spitfires of 132 Sqn after they attacked him while he was landing. Sqn Ldr Geoffrey Page, who has been mentioned elsewhere in the forum, in turn managed to knock Jabs down at the expense of some bacon Jabs was transporting in his 110. (Thomas and Shores, 2nd Tactical Air Force Volume 1: Spartan to Normandy June 1943 to June 1944, page 99.) So even a bacon carrying Bf 110G, when flown by a capable pilot, could be deadly to Spitfire IXs.

 

[GregP]

Pretty good to be carrying bacon into combat. LMAO! Reminds me of the GI's in the South Pacific taking beer kegs up to 30,000 feet to cool them off. In the Air Force, we used to use Freon to do the same on occasion.

I believe any plane that gets ambushed is a victim of the unseen attacker. I wonder if they knew they were under attack before they took disabling hits? Maybe they thought that since he was landing, he'd run. It would interesting to find out.

 

[Juha]

...I believe any plane that gets ambushed is a victim of the unseen attacker. I wonder if they knew they were under attack before they took disabling hits? Maybe they thought that since he was landing, he'd run. It would interesting to find out.

IIRC Jabs saw they coming and turned towards them, so Spit pilots surprise bounce turned out a head on attack and Jabs was better shooter and shot 2 Spits down right away. Cannot remmeber was Jab's 110 also hit but anyway Jabs though that dogfight with the rest of Spits would have only one end so he didn't wait to be shot down but crash-landed his 110 before other Spits could attack him.

Juha

 

[nuuumannn]

So even a bacon carrying Bf 110G, when flown by a capable pilot, could be deadly to Spitfire IXs.

Mmmmm, Bacon...

While we are on the subject of hypothesising, granted, the Fw 187 would have been brilliant if it went into service and if its performance was as good as claimed then there's no doubt the British would hve come up with some sort of countermeasure, as I've said before, to it, so Mossie losses might not have been as great as Fw 187 protagonists claim. An aircraft that resembles the Fw 187 in concept, but was far more prolific and with better performance was the de Havilland Hornet. Although a much later proposition, there's nothing saying that the British would not have produced Hornets earlier to counter the Fw 187 on long range bomber ops, as that was what it was intended to be used for in reality, as a long range bomber escort for use against Japan.

 

[nuuumannn]

Great story. Here is Oberst Jabs' own version of events.

"My most memorable combat occurred in daylight on 29 April 1944 when I was flying my Bf 110 from St Trond to my own base at Arnhem [Deelen], in Holland. In addition to my crew, I also had a side of bacon on board which I had bought in Belgium.Flying in 10/10ths cloud cover, I headed lower just before Arnhem, where the coulds began to break. Soon, I could make out single-engined fighters over the airfield which I mistakenly took for our own. In fact they were Spitfire Mk.IX, which were almost twice as fast as my Bf 110. It was too late to try to flee into the clouds since I had been seen, so Im prepared to defend myself. Turning to face them as the first Spitfire made its pass, I scored some hits and, as the second machine turned for another attack, I hastily landed on the airfield, a fresh new attack now bringing cannon fire down on my aircraft. Thankfully, [my crew] escaped before the aircraft was totally destroyed, and with it, my side of bacon."

According to the book this came from, German Night Fighter Aces of WW2 by Jerry Scutts, the pilot who destroyed Jabs' Bf 110 was indeed Geoffrey Page and years later, Page and Jabs met and Jabs told him the story about the bacon and the following Christmas a side of pork turned up at Jabs' house with a note from Page saying he was 'frightfully sorry'!

 

[GregP]

That's pretty damned good!

Seems like bacon has been tied to a lot of interesting things. My dad had an interesting experience in Germany during the 1950's and told me some stories about a side of bacon that was "kidnapped" from the senior officers and dsitributed among the men. The senior officers tried very hard to find it, but all they had to do was to lift the side of the tent and stuff it into the snow! The officers never found the bacon, but they could smell it all over the camp!

Over the years at the Planes of Fame Museum, we have heard some other stories about bacon being right in the middle of combat, and somehow it usually got saved first even before the beer or whiskey. Seems like eating comes first, even in combat. Never heard of anyone going to extraordinary measures to save a C or K ration, though. Bacon? That's a different story.

 

[CobberKane]

Were 132 squadron New Zealanders? I read a similar story at the RNZAF museum. There can't have been too many instances where a single Bf110 shot down two of a group of attacking Spitfires. Then again, it's hard to imagine a Kiwi being 'frightfully sorry' about anything - more like "****, sorry mate!"
When Armstrong stepped on the moon he delivered his rehearsed speech about "one small step for man" (and got it wrong). When Hillary climbed off Everest he delivered the immortal line: "Knocked the bastard off!"
Proud to be Antipodean.

 

[drgondog]

OK

The USA lost about 31,000 planes on operations, the British lost about 29,000 and the Russian lost about 30,000. That's 120,000 planes on operations exclusive of domestic training and the like.

Looks like 90,000 - where are you losing another 30,000?


?

What was the question?

 

[GregP]

Yah it was 90,000.

 

[stona]

One of the men shot down that day was New Zealander John Caulton.
Here's his rather sorry looking Spitfire.

And here is Caulton talking with Jabs. He has a gash on his head and also received a blow to his right knee.

Both men had made crash landings. Jabs was uninjured. The two became good friends after the war.

Cheers

Steve

 

[Readie]

So did these old adversaries.

Not sure who the sunglasses boys are mind you.

Cheers
John

 

[GregP]

In addition to Galland and Rall, the guy on the right in the pic looks like Robin Olds. The one in the middle looks like Connie Edwards. Can't tell enough about the third guy to attempt an ID, but the profile reminds me of Bob Love.

Interesting, with an He 111 (CASA) behind them. Any idea when and where it was taken? Maybe during filming "The Battle of Britain?" The black hats look like Confererate Air Force, which was involved in the film.

 

[Readie]

Rall ?

Look again Greg

Cheers
John

 

[GregP]

Still looks like Rall in the first pic to me ... but I don't exactly have a lot of pictures of him at that time in his life.

When I met most of the WWII pilots I met, it was in the 1980's ... and memory isn't exactly a portrait. Then I suppose the guy in the first pic on the left is Bader? Tough to tell from the pic. Don't you wish people could write so you could read it?

Is that a movie poster for "Skywarriors?" Didn't get a hit on "movie Skywarriors" on Google.

Wonder if that is Bf 109 or an Hispano Buchon (or Tripala) in the background? I t appears to have the horizontal tail support struts, making me think it is a real Messerschmitt, probably an E model. They were deleted on the F and later models and the Hispanos were basically G-model airframes.

Know when all this was done? Late 1960's? Early 1970's?

 

[drgondog]

In addition to Galland and Rall, the guy on the right in the pic looks like Robin Olds. The one in the middle looks like Connie Edwards. Can't tell enough about the third guy to attempt an ID, but the profile reminds me of Bob Love.

That is not Robin. In addition to having too square face to be him, Robin was also about 5-6" taller than Galland. The Black hats are CAF but I don't know who they are either.

Interesting, with an He 111 (CASA) behind them. Any idea when and where it was taken? Maybe during filming "The Battle of Britain?" The black hats look like Confererate Air Force, which was involved in the film.

Must confess that the taller gentleman looks more like Stanford Tuck to me..definitely not Rall

 

[GregP]

It sure looks like Stanford Tuck in the little pic (2nd post), and certainly could be in the first pic, too. Since the appear to be taken with much the same people, it probably is.

Maybe the guy on the right in the sunglasses is a younger Lefty Gardner. I didn't meet him until the mid-1980's, and that has been awhile! At that time he didn't have a mustache, but the features are very similar.

 

[Readie]

Greg, lucky chap. Did you meet any British aces?
RST it is btw
Cheers
John

 

[FlakDancer]

Greg,

This appears to be a project in the making. Here is what I found Four Stars International |  In Development

 

[nuuumannn]

Yeah, that's Bob Stanford Tuck and Galland (and friends) during the making of Battle of Britain. These are publicity shots that were taken and released in different books and magazines to publicise the movie's release. Tuck and Galland were mates since the war. I've got a booklet on the making of the movie with these pics in it somewhere.