1941: top 3 Allied fighters

[tomo pauk]

I'm not sure that Hurricane and F4F-3 were better fighters than P-40B/C/D, P-39C/D, Yak-1, LaGG-3, Mig-3 or P-38D/E.

Actually, just by looking at raw speed, the MiG-3 was fastest of the lot (especially the examples built before Germans invaded), closely followed by Spitfire V and P-38. Granted, the MiG carried quite a light armament, much more close to the Italian and Japanese fighters than what West was beginning to use.

 

[stona]

Surely any US aircraft that wasn't operated either by the British and their allies or by proxy in China doesn't really count for 1941. Do they squeak in for three weeks when the conflict had been going on for over two years?
Cheers
Steve

 

[tomo pauk]

If we are going to rate world's aircraft by how much kills their pilots achieved, the Bf 109 is unsurpassed. Yet it was not the best fighter of ww2.
What are your picks here?

 

[oldcrowcv63]

Surely any US aircraft that wasn't operated either by the British and their allies or by proxy in China doesn't really count for 1941. Do they squeak in for three weeks when the conflict had been going on for over two years?
Cheers
Steve

Not even sure the F4F-3 comes in for he last 3 weeks. I believe it wasn't equipped with armor or maybe even SST until the initial squadrons in the last weeks of 1941. Some even into early 1942 so, while it is equipping USN fleet units from January, 1941 forward, it's probably not exactly combat ready. I'd maybe go for P-40D except it'a produced in such low numbers (40?)

 

[vinnye]

I would have the Typhoon - if it could keep its tail on!
Then the Spitfire V a or b but not the trop!
and my heavy would be the Beau.

 

[vinnye]

I would have the Typhoon - if it could keep its tail on!
Then the Spitfire V a or b but not the trop!
and my heavy would be the Beau.

 

[wuzak]

How does the Whirlwind rate in 1941?

 

[wuzak]

I'm not sure that Hurricane and F4F-3 were better fighters than P-40B/C/D, P-39C/D, Yak-1, LaGG-3, Mig-3 or P-38D/E.

Actually, just by looking at raw speed, the MiG-3 was fastest of the lot (especially the examples built before Germans invaded), closely followed by Spitfire V and P-38. Granted, the MiG carried quite a light armament, much more close to the Italian and Japanese fighters than what West was beginning to use.

Wasn't the MiG-3 a bit of a handful?

 

[parsifal]

P-38 in terms of its combat experience and record to the end of 1941 is extremely questionable. For one thing none were delivered until March 1942, though they had been ordered since before the fall of France. 524 were on order as of March 1941, but not a single example was provided until the following year.

When France fell in June1940, the entire French/British contract was taken up by Britain. By July 1941 the RAF recognized there would be a need for high-altitude capabilities, and the original contract was amended to deliver 143 Lightning Is with the V-1710-15 non-turbo-supercharged engines (this was stipulated because of the US embargo on export of its turbo technologies), and the remaining 524 as Lightning IIs with turbo-supercharged V-1710-F5L/-F5R engines (which were never delivered) . Because of its non-turbo, right-handed Allisons, RAF's Lightning I was christened the "Castrated P-38" by the factory. It turned out that the nickname was apt. The first three Lightnings arrived in the UK by sea transport in March 1942. was sent to Cunliffe-Owen at Southampton for examination and experiments. was sent to Boscombe Down for flight evaluation. went to the Royal Aircraft Establishment at Farnborough for experiments and evaluation.

Performance of the hybrid m which was the only one to anything even like squadron service for the RAF was very poor and RAF refused further deliveries after testing only three examples.

Arguing that the type was in US service is also a bit of a technical con job. The US was not an allied power until December 1941, so unless we are counting that last three weeks of 1941, seems even more of a stretch.

 

[Vincenzo]

Soviet had 1029 MiG-3 on 1st june 1941 (but only 494 trained pilot)
MiG-3 was surely the fastest allied fighter in high altitude, the Yak-1 was probably the fastest in low medium altitude (taking out the Spit V), i've not counting the twin engined (the P-38D/E almost on paper is much faster and also the Whirlwind would be almost fast as Yak-1)

 

[wuzak]

Soviet had 1029 MiG-3 on 1st june 1941 (but only 494 trained pilot)
MiG-3 was surely the fastest allied fighter in high altitude, the Yak-1 was probably the fastest in low medium altitude (taking out the Spit V), i've not counting the twin engined (the P-38D/E almost on paper is much faster and also the Whirlwind would be almost fast as Yak-1)

The Typhoon must have been the fastest, or near to it, at low level of all Allied fighters in service in 1941?

 

[wuzak]

Curse of the double post strikes again.

 

[Greyman]

Quick n' dirty chart:

Tomahawk IIb (P-40C), russian data, A&AEE figures generally agree
Yak-1, russian data
Whirlwind I, A&AEE. Not running max boost. By my estimate it would be about the Spit's speed below 12,000
MiG-3, russian data
Spitfire Vb, A&AEE. With +12 boost estimated from an amalgamation of tests. Probably a couple mph optimistic under 16,000
Typhoon Ib, A&AEE, later test

The thin line way out in front is an early 1941 Typhoon with 12 x .303s. Tested at the AFDU.

 

[Vincenzo]

The Typhoon was declared operational in May '42 (but was not trouble free, they not go in combat until november)

 

[tomo pauk]

Wasn't the MiG-3 a bit of a handful?

For a pilot coming from a biplane fighter, it probably was. We can recall that I-16 and Bf-109 were considered as such, the answer was 'more training'.

P-38 in terms of its combat experience and record to the end of 1941 is extremely questionable. For one thing none were delivered until March 1942, though they had been ordered since before the fall of France. 524 were on order as of March 1941, but not a single example was provided until the following year.

There was no combat experience for the P-38s in 1941. The 1st were delivered in 1941, not in 1942, though, and took part in USAAC maneuvers in that year.

When France fell in June1940, the entire French/British contract was taken up by Britain. By July 1941 the RAF recognized there would be a need for high-altitude capabilities, and the original contract was amended to deliver 143 Lightning Is with the V-1710-15 non-turbo-supercharged engines (this was stipulated because of the US embargo on export of its turbo technologies), and the remaining 524 as Lightning IIs with turbo-supercharged V-1710-F5L/-F5R engines (which were never delivered) . Because of its non-turbo, right-handed Allisons, RAF's Lightning I was christened the "Castrated P-38" by the factory. It turned out that the nickname was apt. The first three Lightnings arrived in the UK by sea transport in March 1942. was sent to Cunliffe-Owen at Southampton for examination and experiments. was sent to Boscombe Down for flight evaluation. went to the Royal Aircraft Establishment at Farnborough for experiments and evaluation.

I'm not sure that there was ever the ban on the turbos - maybe that was repeated enough times so became a 'truth'?
The non-turbo P-322 (no typo) was outfitted with the V-1710 C-15 (or V-1710-33) in order to allow commonality with the Tomahawks on order. In early 1940, when the Brits French were ordering, both F series of V-1710 and turbos were far from service use - the second prototype of P-38 (the 1st YP-38 - 'F' series V-1710 and turbo; the XP-38 was with 'C' series engines and turbo) was delivered in September of 1940!
We can recall that USAF was doing the same - in 1939/40, they skipped proposals and prototypes of turboed fighters with V-1710, in order to have ANY worthwhile fighters in 1941.

Performance of the hybrid m which was the only one to anything even like squadron service for the RAF was very poor and RAF refused further deliveries after testing only three examples.

Of course - the 350-360 mph fighter might have been an asset in 1940, could pass in 1941, but was a dog in 1942. Plus, it was to be paid for, and the 2-engined fighters tend to be expensive

Arguing that the type was in US service is also a bit of a technical con job. The US was not an allied power until December 1941, so unless we are counting that last three weeks of 1941, seems even more of a stretch.

The USN was fighting U-boats for some time before P.H. The LL was an act of Allied-ship, if there was any.

 

[wuzak]

The Typhoon was declared operational in May '42 (but was not trouble free, they not go in combat until november)

In 1941 the Spitfire Vs which equipped the bulk of Fighter Command squadrons were outclassed by the Focke-Wulf Fw 190 and suffered many losses. The Typhoon was rushed into service with Nos. 56 and 609 Squadrons in the summer of 1941, to counter the Fw 190. This decision proved to be a disaster and several Typhoons were lost to unknown causes and the Air Ministry began to consider halting production of the Typhoon.

Hawker Typhoon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So, it did see service in 1941, though nothing to be particularly proud of!

 

[tomo pauk]

Or did it (from the 'Hawker Typhoon, Tempest and Sea Fury by Kev Darling):

Being the first unit to receive a new type of aircraft is an unnerving experience, especially for the pilots, and it is quite a steep learning curve for th e ground crew, too. No. 56 Sqn, commanded by Sqn Ldr Peter Prosser Hanks, at Duxford, received II first Typhoon lA s on 11 September 1941, with the others arriving throughout
that month; the last one flew in at the beginning of October, to make sixteen on strength .

then:

Training for the pilots of No. 56 Sqn continued unabated until I November 194 1, when one of their aircraft crashed with fatal consequences: this was R7592,

The book is less precise on when the No. 56 Sqn joined operations, the 1st operative sortie mentioned in the book was in May 1942, that undertaken by No 266 Sqn.

Service it was, but it was the familiarization and training.

 

[Vincenzo]

Wuzak wiki is wrong, the 609th get the Typhoons only in april '42, and however as noted also from tomo pauk they were not rushed in operation in '41 (actually the shoot down first 190 only in january '43)
the 266th was the 2nd unit to get Typhoons from january '42

 

[Milosh]

56 Sqn 1st operation May 30 1942, deliveries commenced Sept 11 1941
had ~9 months of familiarization and training

226 Sqn 1st operation May 28 1942, deliveries commenced Jan 6 1942
had ~5 months of familiarization and training

609 Sqn 1st operation July 30 1942, deliveries commenced April 10 1942
had ~4 months of familiarization and training

R7592, US-L, crashed due to CO fumes in the cockpit with predictable results for the pilot.

 

[stona]

The Typhoon was declared operational in May '42 (but was not trouble free, they not go in combat until november)

The unit is declared operational. The aircraft gets a series of clearances. I agree that no Typhoon aircraft were serving with an operational unit in 1941 and it should not be included in a list of 1941 fighters. Otherwise you might as well include prototypes and other incomplete projects.

An initial Service Clearance was given in September 1941 and eight production aircraft were subsequently delivered to No. 13 M.U. They did not then go on to squadron service but were returned to Brockworth for examination of the gun bay heating trunk, but they were fitted with Service radio and IFF equipment at the M.U.

No. 56 Squadron received its first two Typhoons on 11th September 1941 at Duxford. The squadron received three more aircraft that month and then eight in October. The aircraft had a Provisional Service Clearance, but it must be emphasised that No. 56 Squadron continued to fly operational sorties in its old Hurricanes and the three month period allotted by Fighter Command for the squadron to 'work up' the Typhoon into operational service proved unrealistic.

The second Typhoon squadron,No. 266 Squadron, didn't even start to receive Typhoons until 1st January 1942 at King's Cliffe and so definitely falls outside any 1941 time line.

No Typhoon squadrons, including No. 56, were operational in 1941. No. 56 Squadron declared one Flight operational on 29th May 1942 and this was the first officially operational Typhoon equipped unit of the RAF.

All three Duxford squadrons (56, 266 and 609 (which was the last to be declared operational on 30th June)) struggled to maintain some semblance of operational capability throughout the second half of 1942.

Cheers

Steve