2 March, 1945... The Ta 152H's Almost Defining Moment...

[Erich]

ah me, well it is specific in Willi's German version that III. gruppe had no losses, but the whole date of 2 March 45 is screwed up as well as another German source doc that I have. 3rd BD was attacked by JG 300 and the second attack they made was on the 1st BD though JG 301 was in force in this, 1 kill to Hans T. of a B-17 f the 398th confirmed. As I was breezing over the US bomb groups web-pages a few minutes ago it appeared if you read it right that II./JG 301 did their best to hammer B-17's while I. gruppe was involved with the Us P-51's.

Truth II./JG 301 lost 9 Lw A/C half of the Dora 9's and they were no where even close to the B-17's as they got jumped by the US 486th squad of the 352nd fg..............I have the whole transmission of this event, the the Lw pilots could not even blink before they were shot down. Hans and some other Fw A-8/A-9's were not in this small section and attacked full on. III. gruppe was invovled also with US Mustnags but not all of them as a Schwarm with Archie involved were able to attack bombers of the 1st BD and may have shot down two more B-17's with ARchie claiming 1 of them.

Dan any chance you can make a copy of your English translation and send off to me postal out of W's book as I need to cross reference this with the German ????

D ~ is there a pic of Hans Todt and his A-8 on page on page 141 in the Englsih version? can you enlarge and put a scan up of the ace, he is sitting in the cockpit of his Fw 190A-8. I may be wrong but Todt may have been flying an A-8/R2. dang the equipment was never precise in this JG all 3 gruppen even had some Dora 9's in their line-up in late 1945 as well ........

Erich

 

[lesofprimus]

On page 159 theres a pic of Hans in his A-8 after he shot down a B-24 Erich...

Erich, do u want me to copy the pages just for March 2nd??? I dont have a scanner anymore that works so outta luck with the pic of Mr. Todt...

 

[Erich]

yes just for 2 March 45 right now Dan. no scanner geez that sucks but understandable, and yes that is the pic of him looking on the cameraman with a slight chezzy grin

 

[lesofprimus]

Very cheezy grin indeed...

 

[lesofprimus]

Comments on my propsed video mission guys??? Corrections???

Im getting a real good situation for this video mission guys.... Ur filling the holes perfectly... The game however wont really allow me to make this mission as realistic as the actual days combats shows.... Will probably limit it to the 152's and 190's of III. Gruppe (22 total) and the 109's of IV. Gruppe (22 total) verses the 3rd Division B-17's, probably put about 30 of them up, and the P-51's of the 353rd FG (40 of them)... Then Ill add in another 20 or so P-51's of the 78th FG comin to the rescue....

I'll start out with the Tanks at 24k, the 109G-10's at 22k and the 190's at the same altitude as the bombers, around 18k.... P-51's of the 353rd at 21k... P-51's of the 78th bounce on the attackers from 22k...

What was the mix on the P-51's??? Mostly D models or split with C and D models??? Remember, Im trying to replicate an effective fighter escort of the 20 Fw 190A-8/9's of III./JG 301...

Is it realistic that 34 Ta 152H's and Bf 109G-10's would be protecting the 20 A-8/9's from the 40 P-51C/D's???

 

[Erich]

III. gruppe had 10-12 Fw 190A-8's up on 2 of March 45.

Bill should answer on the P-51 sub-types D ~

 

[drgondog]

Comments on my propsed video mission guys??? Corrections???



What was the mix on the P-51's??? Mostly D models or split with C and D models??? Remember, Im trying to replicate an effective fighter escort of the 20 Fw 190A-8/9's of III./JG 301...

Is it realistic that 34 Ta 152H's and Bf 109G-10's would be protecting the 20 A-8/9's from the 40 P-51C/D's???

Dan ~ Mostly D's. The one 339th ship lost around Sachau was a 51C. The 8th AF started 1945 with about 20% P-51B/C inventory. I would be guessing on mix as of March but I know the 355th still had perhaps 15+% left of late model P-51B/C w/Malcolm Hoods. My father flew on on March 24 when his bird 'was in the shop' with that 40mm rudder hit from 22 March.

Notionally, the Sachau area looks like a JG301 territory?

It looks like the first engagement of the 339th was in the Sachau are then the big fight the 503FS/339th FG was areound Magdeburg and east of there. the 505th had one flight engage in same area before dropping down to strafe Mockern A/F.

So, Speculating - if one flight of the 505 also bounced around Magdeburg, at least 4 more were flying cover. So if you are thinking about 339 anywhere it would be first an eight ship attack of 503 covered by 8 more, then 4 from 505 covered by 4 more - would be typical tactics at this stage of the war.

The 78th only had one squadron engaged so 20 would be too high a number. In one of the encounter reports a 3 ship fligh due to an abort was in the narrative so 15 would be about max as apparently the spares filled up the squadron until that last abort.

 

[Erich]

correct Bill on Sachau as that was III./JG 301's airfield

The 78th fg had the whole group up but John Landers the CO led the 83rd fs on a bounce of IV./JG 301. Landers actually turned the 83rd around to dive out of the sun from 21,000 ft and he reports the 109G's were at 15,000 feet below

 

[drgondog]

correct Bill on Sachau as that was III./JG 301's airfield

The 78th fg had the whole group up but John Landers the CO led the 83rd fs on a bounce of IV./JG 301. Landers actually turned the 83rd around to dive out of the sun from 21,000 ft and he reports the 109G's were at 15,000 feet below

We are saying the same thing.

What I was trying to do for Dan's benefit is get a picture of the actual furball of fighters in the same airspace. Landers led a bounce and directed the other two squadrons to stay, or the 78th was up in an A and B group - each with a full squadron plus 1/2 of the third to get 56-60 Mustangs up and have 25-30 available for the bounce.

Gary Fry's book was not very illuminating on the force structure in his book.

Just looked up 353rd and 352nd. The 352nd A and B Group were comprised of the 486FS with 5 flights. A was led by Ed Heller, which had only 7 ships , was the force that tangled with the Fw 190s near Rositz - 15+ Fw 190s attacking the lead boxes. B Group led by Willy Jackson was the one that caught an Fw 189 on the deck then strafed the airfield in the Prague and Zwickau area.

353rd had an A and B group comprised of 42 effective Mustangs in the fight after 5 early aborts. Their escort responsibility was 3rd Div B-17s attacking Ruhland. B Group encountered six 109s and ~ 20 Fws and engaged at 27,000 and 25,000 feet near Wittenberge. A Group hit 15 Fw190s and engaged from S/Berlin through Dessau and Magdeburg.

355th and 4th and 479th were escorting the B-24 Task Force which lost one bomber on way back near Dummer Lake (to fighters) and one to flak and one to friendly fire. Basically unmolested.

 

[Erich]

I confirm you factasion

the 352nd fg caught a small section of II./JG 301 forming on the leader, this is the so-called famous story about poor Helmut Rix though as a kid he knew nothing of flying on ops through his own admittance, and for years he wanted to know whom shot his section and him down- the LW craft still had belly tanks on when hit, but part of II. gruppe flew on as a separate entity and attacked the 1st BD, and I also believe that III. gruppe did as well as they were in a tangled web with 8th AF fighters, so maybe out of 10/12 Fw 190A-8's a schwarm of 4 got out and made a one pass assault on B-17's. Bill the macar from the 390th bg is interesting but not quite correct as to numbers of Fw's but still.........the JG 301 report from Willi is a jumbled mess and the appearance is that the Geschwader were in contact with one another by radio but never did do a tie up to attack enmasse due to the Allied escort appearance. The biggest problem I have is differentiating between the mass of JG 301 Fw's and the 109's/Fw's of JG 300 as they seem to have some overlap as JG 300 did do up 2 different attacks during this date.

through a tad bit more research wha thte 78th fg had not done to the IV./JG 301 with 13 kills the 339th fg finished off.

II./JG 301 looks to be in two elements, Rix was with at least 2 if not all the Dora 9's led by Kropp, as they were lining up on the B-17's after the first of their group/staffel or wahtever makeup went through the 4 remaining Fw's in SChwarm, Rix was the trailing A/c went towards to attack and this is when the 352nd fg hit them. Seconds mattred and this is what has happened, some 5 Doras from II./JG 301 were shot down in combat.
from one source it is stated that 1 pilot of IV./JG 301 fell to 2 357th fg pilot's after a long aerial engagement.

 

[drgondog]

Is it realistic that 34 Ta 152H's and Bf 109G-10's would be protecting the 20 A-8/9's from the 40 P-51C/D's???

I forgot to answer this. The odds are that a max of two squadrons (or a A or a B Group of 24+ each) would be in a position to engage Dan... the usual tactics was two flights attacking, with two covering - then if more showed up the second squadron if in position to bounce the new guys would usually attack the same way - two flights of four with two more flights providing top cover.

Only if another wave came into the area would the thrird squadron attack and it would try to leave a couple of flights for the last escort cover. This scenario occurred very few times even in the November, 1944 or September 1944 battles.

Short answer - more likely the attacking German fighters would have local superiority over the escorts unless they hung around long enough for another Group to get the call and send a squadron up. The A8's would be long gone by then in most cases.

 

[lesofprimus]

III. gruppe had 10-12 Fw 190A-8's up on 2 of March 45.

Yea Erich, that was a typo, should read 10 190A-8/9's...

Lot of info to digest with what u guys added here... Thanks for the answers.... I gotta try and simplify this scenario to get it to work in the IL2 Sturmovik video game....

So..... My 3 flights of 4 (12 total) Ta 152H's flying top cover (24,000 feet) for the 3 flights of 4 (12 total) Fw 190A-8/9's (18,000 feet) of III. Gruppe meet up with 5 flights of 4 (20) Bf 109G-10's of IV. Gruppe (21,000 feet)...

As we are escorting the mixed bag of 190A-8R2's, A-8's and 9's (44 total aircraft) towards the 3rd BG of 30 B-17's (15,000 feet) we are attacked by how many P-51's and what altitude??? From what Erich said, the -51's came in from 21,000 feet to hit the G-10's at 15,000 feet... Since we're talkin a hypothetical combat here, PLEASE, tell me how u think this combat would transpire.... I want to try and get this as correct as I can....

From what ur saying Bill, only 8 P-51's would have bounced my 44 aircraft with 8 more -51's covering the bouncers.... Would the P-51's of the 503rdFS/339thFG been at a higher altitude than my top cover Ta 152H's??? Maybe have the 83rdFS/78thFG come in a few minutes later with 8 on a bounce with 8 more covering them???

Im taking notes on all u guys are saying and its starting to get blurry... Recommendations on how I should make this mission up??? PLEASE use number of aircraft and altitudes.... My goal is to show what the Tanks would have done against the Mustangs if they were not intercepted and attacked by their own G-10's... Im only concerned with III and IV Gruppes of JG301...

Whatever is most feasable and theoretical as far as the FS/FG's go is good to go....

 

[Erich]

it's very confusing in reality will be more so when you eliminate a couple scenarios and get on with a whole formed up Geschwader of boyz to meet the US 8th AF escorts.

D ~ it is still unclear to me whom the Tanks of III. gruppe were to protect of their JG or just get to high altitude and wait for some P-51's to bounce ?
more and more it appears the III. gruppe Fw 190A-8/A-9's attacked the bombers of the 3rd B.D.

 

[drgondog]

Yea Erich, that was a typo, should read 10 190A-8/9's...

Lot of info to digest with what u guys added here... Thanks for the answers.... I gotta try and simplify this scenario to get it to work in the IL2 Sturmovik video game....

So..... My 3 flights of 4 (12 total) Ta 152H's flying top cover (24,000 feet) for the 3 flights of 4 (12 total) Fw 190A-8/9's (18,000 feet) of III. Gruppe meet up with 5 flights of 4 (20) Bf 109G-10's of IV. Gruppe (21,000 feet)...

As we are escorting the mixed bag of 190A-8R2's, A-8's and 9's (44 total aircraft) towards the 3rd BG of 30 B-17's (15,000 feet) we are attacked by how many P-51's and what altitude??? From what Erich said, the -51's came in from 21,000 feet to hit the G-10's at 15,000 feet... Since we're talkin a hypothetical combat here, PLEASE, tell me how u think this combat would transpire.... I want to try and get this as correct as I can....

From what ur saying Bill, only 8 P-51's would have bounced my 44 aircraft with 8 more -51's covering the bouncers.... Would the P-51's of the 503rdFS/339thFG been at a higher altitude than my top cover Ta 152H's??? Maybe have the 83rdFS/78thFG come in a few minutes later with 8 on a bounce with 8 more covering them???

Dan in the real world none of the 8th Groups were supporting each other as each of the clashes were in different locations along the bomber track.

The 8th AF BC came west to east toward Magdeburg then split up - 2nd Div continued to Magdeburg and past to rally point, the back wnw to Hannover then down toward Dummer lake and home - doesn't look like any of the B-24s were shot down by fighters but there is one that Erich and I are looking at near Trier.

The 3rd Div came almost in a west to east track to about 50 miles short of Magdeburg then headed SE to Ruhland with a smaller force attacking Dresdand past Ruhland, then past the target to the Rally Point over Czechoslovakia and back up and around S. Berlin and NE Leipzig to Dessau area. The 3rd Div lost 4 to fighters and 2 to flak plus 2 to mid air over channel

The First Div came same track then broke se to Chemnitz area targets then turned back along the Zwickau track. First Div lost 2 to flak, 1 to fighters

Im taking notes on all u guys are saying and its starting to get blurry... Recommendations on how I should make this mission up??? PLEASE use number of aircraft and altitudes.... My goal is to show what the Tanks would have done against the Mustangs if they were not intercepted and attacked by their own G-10's... Im only concerned with III and IV Gruppes of JG301...

Whatever is most feasable and theoretical as far as the FS/FG's go is good to go....

The 78th FG led by John D Landers spotted the "24" 109s at 15,000ft from 21,000 feet. He led the 83FS in a 180 degree turn to position an attack out of the dsun from 6 o'clock and got the first one near the rear of the formation at 15,000 feet. From that point forward it was a furball and this battle was all 109/P-51.

All encounter reports on Mike's website are 83FS and all talk about either "24" 109s or between 20-30 109s at 15,000 feet - which were spotted in a hole in the undercast. The 78th would have bounced with no more than perhaps 14-15 Mustangs and would have had lead and one other flight in front wave with a trailing two flights higher and to the rear for cover.

As I am not sure which JG's the 78th (or 339th or 353rd or 352nd) hit I can only speak to Burg area for this engagement.

The 339th would have probably been in A and B Group of 20+ Mustangs each and as 503 and 505 FS were the primary shooters between Magdeburg and Leipzig, I suspect that is the battle you may be looking for. That was a mixture of 190s and 109s.

The 352nd apparently bounced 190D's around Prague/Zwickau. That would have been at bomber altitudes to start with (26-24K). This was a small force attacking 10 plus Fw 190s. The book says six, the awards went to seven 486FS pilots of A group.

The 353rd was bounced by 109s above the bombers and also engaged Fw 190s in a company front attck at bomber altitudes near Wittenberge and Ruhland. I would say in this case that two flights of the 350th engaged the 109s and a couple of flights of the 351st would have also engaged the same Fw 190 and 109 force. At least two squadrons ~ 32 Mustangs might have engaged in the Ruhland/Wittenberge fight either as shooters or top cover. All starting at bomber altitude.

For the 357th FG the fights were 40-50 miles apart so unlikely more than one section, maybe one squadron would have engaged NE Leipzig and the other around E/SE of Magdeburg for their 109/190 scores. These started at bomber altitudes.

The only scrap betwwen LW and 8th AF FC that started at 15,000 feet was one squadron of 78FG Mustangs.

Th

 

[Erich]

it's crazy that is fact. Initially the 78th hit the Iv./Jg 301 which then scattered to the winds in all directions cause of the crashes confirmed in areas mentioned in Reschkes chronology. the 339th then cleaned up the rest of IV.Gruppe. the 353rd according to the JG 300 diary engaged JG 300 in full.

for the 1st bd as the 352nd fg was providing cover and have read the story 3 times today Ed Heller led the sq. after at least 4 trailing Fw 190's a couple of them were Dora 9's with another 1-2 swarms of II./JG 301 in the lead that attacked the B-17's, this is where 1 B-17 of the 398th met it's end at the hands of Hans Todt.

for added punch the 10-12 Fw 190A's of III./Jg 301 were added to the arsenal of JG 300 at a different moment in time as III. gruppe was in a hopeless situation near Magdeburg most likely engaged with the 353rd and 357th fg. the Ta's of III./JG 301 were in a silly tangle with 109's and had to use their quickness and height acceleration to advantage to get out of harms way and thus were null and void..............

now for Dan's scenario, whom would the Tanks been providing cover for ? III. gruppe Fw 190A's most likely as it was still designated the Schwere Gruppe, so it would appear that the 353rd and the 357thfg's would of been the US escort force..........my opinion at least for the moment.

 

[Soren]

What a mess, total confusion.

 

[drgondog]

What a mess, total confusion.

Soren - from the time I was four and able to somewhat comprehend I was listening to some of the wildest recounts of total confusion - bombers falling out of the sky, fighter pilot picking out one foe that 'stood out', losing wingmen in high G turns, chases on the deck under power lines and hedge hopping trees, second guessing tactics, wondering what the hell it really was all about.

Bourbon and single malt scotch were the preferred elixers to re-open memories.. moments of silence, raucus laughter and the kinship of fighter pilots who lived life to the max and survived to talk about it - amongst themselves.. outsiders not welcome!

 

[Soren]

The air war over Europe was intense and confusing, no wonder the rookies got shot down first, you had to know what you were doing to survive.

The fear was no doubt high amongst all parties envolved. As an Allied pilot you're flying over enemy territory, you know soon all hell is going to break loose as 'they' are coming to get you! While as a German pilot you're determined to prevent harm to your family, you 'must' stop the bombers, after which you 'know' you're the hunted one as the escorts come screaming down at you !

Intense confusing is probably the best way to describe the air war in Europe.

 

[drgondog]

The air war over Europe was intense and confusing, no wonder the rookies got shot down first, you had to know what you were doing to survive.

The fear was no doubt high amongst all parties envolved. As an Allied pilot you're flying over enemy territory, you know soon all hell is going to break loose as 'they' are coming to get you! While as a German pilot you're determined to prevent harm to your family, you 'must' stop the bombers, after which you 'know' you're the hunted one as the escorts come screaming down at you !

Intense confusing is probably the best way to describe the air war in Europe.

I did a quick study on the 355th - 70% of the air to air losses were pilots with less than 6 missions.

 

[lesofprimus]

Man...... Going through this excellent info, theres 3 ways of doing this, or one way with 3 seperate parts....... One way or the other, I think its gonna be too much for the game to handle...

Heres what I gathered from the two of u... Corrections are necessary and a couple of questions to boot....



The 78th FG/83rd FS with 15 P-51's bounces 24 Bf 109G-10's of IV/JG301 from 21k to 15k feet... 8 commence the bounce with 7 covering down behind them....

Then, the 503rdFS/339thFG with 20+ P-51's hit mixed up 190's and 109's, followed shortly by the 505th with another 20+ Mustangs...

3rd BG (13 B-17's per Squadron, 4 Squadrons to a Group = 52 CORRECT???) is at 24-26k feet being covered by the 353rd 357th FG's, each with 20+ P-51C/D's, flying at 28k feet... Total of 40+ P-51's.... They bounce III/JG301 at 27k feet...

Does this seem close fellas???