2 March, 1945... The Ta 152H's Almost Defining Moment...

Discussion in 'Aviation' started by lesofprimus, Sep 29, 2008.

  1. lesofprimus

    lesofprimus Active Member

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    As some of u guys know, I started getting into making music video clips to IL2 Sturmovik game footage.... Im almost done working on the one for the Sturmgruppen of IV./JG3 and the next video is formulating....

    I want to do a what if clip, with Willi Reschke and his Tank from III./JG301 as they were going to engage P-51D Mustangs over Madgeburg before they got bounced by their own Bf 109G-10 and scattered everyone to the four corners.

    Im using Willis' book as refrence for this, but his info is kinda spotty... Hopefully, between Erich and Bill and some others I can get a clearerr picture as to what happened and go from there...

    My idea is that instead of getting bounced by the 109's, they joined up and secured the fighter escort for the other Gruppen of JG 301...

    Heres what I got from Willi....

    III./JG301 takes off from Sachau, led by Oblt Stahl, with 12 Ta 152's and 10-12 Fw 190 A-8's and 9's... The Ta's reach 8,000 meters headed South towards Dresden... (What alt were the 190's at?)There they meet up (at 8,000 meters?) with XX number (How many?) of G-10's who have the yellow/red fuselage band and end up comin under fire from them.... The Tanks quickly disengage by outclimbing them... The 8th AF sent 1,232 B-24's and 17's, and 774 P-47's and 51's to the Madgeburg area...

    Over Madgeburg, the entire Geschwader is attacked by Mustangs while trying to get to the bombers.... (What Altitude?) The 8th AF officially lost 15 bombers and 15 fighters... The Germans were decimated, especially the newly formed IV./JG 301, who basically ceased to exist after this mission... The Geschwader lost 24 airplanes, NOT including those that were lost by III. Gruppe, whose loss info is not included in Willis' book... (how many losses for III Gruppe?) German records only show 2 claims for the pilots of JG301, both over Madgeburg...

    I have no idea which units were in combat with JG301, nor whether they were -17's or 24's that were the target for JG301... It doesnt say if there were P-47's engaged or not either, just Mustangs... III Gruppe was engaged by Mustangs over and just South of Madgeburg following a failed attempt to attack the bombers, (what kind of bombers?) but this did not include the Tanks, just the 190's, and they suffered heavy losses...

    This marked the last mission that JG301 flew a major defensive mission against 4 engine bombers....

    Any help in clarifying the gaps present would be a great help....
     
  2. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
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    just reporting in Dan, I'm wasted from 600 miles on the road. let me get a clear head this week and will add or fill in the gaps or .......... ? Zzzzzzzzzzzzz
    E ~
     
  3. lesofprimus

    lesofprimus Active Member

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    Thanks Erich......
     
  4. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
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    D ~

    the 352nd shot down 6 Fw's both D-9's and A-8/A-9's of II./JG 301.

    20 Bf 109G-10's of IV. gruppe were slaughtered by Mustangs of the 78th fg. although the US group only claimed 13.

    the 353rd fg was in combat with JG 300 but overflew the JG 301 route, the 339th and the 357th were also engaged probably with the III./JG 301 boyz.
     
  5. drgondog

    drgondog Well-Known Member

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    will do the same..but I can tell you the 78th and 339th and 353rd and 357th FG were the 8th AF heavy hitters, losing a total of four Mustangs air to air in the Magdeburg area - and six to flak while strafing. The 353rd lhad most losses with a total of 3, two to fighters and one to FF from the bombers while chasing a 190.


    The 352nd was further east and south near Zwickau and Prague and lost zero to any cause, the 353rd was further ne in the Ruhland/Wittenburg/Berlin triangle and suspect they may have bee the lads engaging JG301.
    The 78th lost one air to air over Magdeburg but shot down 13 Me 109s, 1 probable and 5 damaged over and around Burg A/F

    The 3rd Div B-17s were the bombers involved in the Magdeburg strike.. losing five to flak, two unknown (probably air) causes, two to mid air in assemmbly formation, two to Mid air over Channel, one damged landed in Russia, and one emergency landing in Belgium
     
  6. lesofprimus

    lesofprimus Active Member

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    Excellent info guys.... Can u answer some more of my questions??? At what altitudes were these combats?? Especially the combats that took place between the 109s of IV and the 190's of III Guppen...

    And what of the losses of III Gruppe Erich??? Willi says they were severe...
     
  7. seesul

    seesul Active Member

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    Dan, if no one will be able to answer your questions, I´ll ask Willi...I´m gonna send him a letter next week as I wanna ask hiw few questions regarding August 29,1944 as well...
    BTW, could you give a call to ''Swede'' and ask him if he got my letter? Got no answer from Susan...thx...
     
  8. lesofprimus

    lesofprimus Active Member

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    Roman, the info Im using for this mission/hypothetical came from Willi's book... The only thing Im lookin for are the blanks to fill in with some needed info... And Im sure by the time u get a reply, I will have this video mission done with Willi strokin on some poor American Mustang drivers... The 152H is a dream to fly in the IL2 game.... They dont stand a chance....

    As for Swede, something is wrong over there, cause there has been no answer and his answer machine is full and not taking new messages... I have like four of them sitting there for him... Im very concerned about him....
     
  9. lesofprimus

    lesofprimus Active Member

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    And Erich/Bill, I need to know the number of aircraft Im gonna be going against, P-51D's and B-17's, as well as how many brothers from IV Gruppe Im gonna have on my fighter escort when I engage the Mustangs while protecting my fellow III Gruppe 190A's towards the B-17's...
     
  10. seesul

    seesul Active Member

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    Thanks Dan, that´ bad...I´ll send an e-mail to Susan today...let´s see...
     
  11. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
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    the best bet D ~ is to check the 78th fg reprots as they will give altitude.......sometimes

    even Willi admits and it is true there is so much of the JG 301 materials ......LOST, well at least for now. I've found some very interesting bits and pieces found of course but that was through other means. We have to remember and it's true that Willi was using almost soley German documentation for his searches. I had a March 2 plot map of the LW in their attacks for diretion so wll have to pull that up. As I said the US 353rd swamped upon Jg 300 and think they had to over-ride JG 301 of sorts but JG 301 was mis-placed all over the region this date. the 109's of the JG had no chance as they were caught over their own field and ripped up.

    back with more ~
     
  12. drgondog

    drgondog Well-Known Member

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    The individual encounter reports I found look like this

    78th attacked starting at 21,000 ft with a bounce on 20+ 109s at 15,000 then ranged all the way to the deck around the Burg A/F area. `1010-1030. 83rd FS led by landers. awarded 13-1-5 losing one Mustang near Magdeburg - 12+ Mustangs in this fight

    352nd hit Fws and 109s from Dessau all the way to Halle and sw of Halle. One squadron -486FS led by Willy Jackson. 15+ Mustangs awarded 6-2-2 Fw 190s for loss of none

    339th -Two squadrons, the 503 plus 505, approximately 30 Mustangs awarded 11-1-6 Me 109s (air) plus 3-1-0 Fw 190s (air) plus 10-4 Do 217 (gnd) for loss of one Mustang (air), two (strafing). E/Magdeburg for air scores, Mockern A/F for ground scores


    353rd started in Ruhland area around 1010-1030 and had their battles from altitude to deck but apparently several in the 8000 ft altitude. The initial bounce was a 20+ gagle of 109s from above. The Fw 190s mostly were destroyed around the deck. Suspect they made one pass and split S while the 109s tried to hold off the 353rd.. Elements of all three 353rd Squadrons engaged in Ruhland, Wittenburg, Dessau and Berlin area. Awarded 8-0-0 Fw 190s (air) plus 7-2-2 Me 109s (air) for loss of two to fighters and one to Friendly fire from bombers,

    357th were all around Leipzig/Magdeburg area 1215-1240 and ranged from 26,000 to 15,000 ft to the deck. All three squadrons engaged with 363nd and 364FS doing the damage. Awarded 10-0-1 Me 109s (air) plus 1-0-1 Fw 190 (air) then strafed Kamanz A/F plus others in the Magdeburg area for 16-17 T/E aircraft on the ground.

    The 357th lost 5 Mustangs , one to fighters and four to flak at Haselof, Magdeburg and Gruezburg.
     
  13. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
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    one so called authorative German source mentions some 23 pilots KIA and one missing from JG 300 and JG 301. but it also states that 8./JG 301 had just received it's firs D-9's to replace it's A-9's but that is not true. 8th staffel never received any D-9's, the pilots actually borrowed "theirs" from 5th/6th staffels.

    Initially the 353rd fg was protecting the bombers but could not eliminate all heavy LW fighters and several B-17's were hit and downed. some 150 Mustangs of the 78th, 339th, 352n dna dhte 357th fg's came to the rescue.

    A IV./JG 301 109 shot down one 78th fg Stang. A 339th P-51C was shot down and 1 357th fg Mustang was shot down. the 353rd lost 2 Mustangs.

    1st Jagd-division reported some 198 fighters from JG 300/301 took part in the action. 19 kills were credited and 2 probables. 3 pilots KIA and 24 missing, 8 wounded...............14 fighters shot down with 24 un-accounted for and 16 damaged.
    of the 24 pilots indicated as missing, 19 were KIA, 1 wounded and 3 are still MIA. What a mess for the LW.
     
  14. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
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    D ~ this was also JG 300's last offensive against US bomber formations as well ........
     
  15. Njaco

    Njaco The Pop-Tart Whisperer
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    This is why I love this forum!

    With IV./JG 301 losing 24 planes, there had to be some staffelkapitaen or at least the Gruppenkommandeur shot down? Anybody know the names of the pilots lost?
     
  16. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
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    yes Njaco, at least one LW Stf-Kapitän was shot down and KIA

    am trying to access ALL the 78th fg op reports
     
  17. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
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    pulled out some more stuff on this action III./Jg 301 set up 10-12 A-8/A-9 south of Magdeburg and were in action with P-51's. do not see any claims nor any losses for the gruppe.

    Dan does the English version of Reschkes work say something else ? would not surprise me as the German/English versions do not agree with one another from time to time.

    E ~
     
  18. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
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    me again well I am getting more info on this air battle as I write this so it will not detract from something in the processe's

    at least 2 kills confirmed for JG 301 one from 8th staffel Hans Todt flyng an unarmored Fw 190A-8 and Archie Hagedorn a B-17 flying an A-8/R2 his first and only victory when he flew in 9./JG 301. Archie is still alive.

    E ~
     
  19. lesofprimus

    lesofprimus Active Member

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    Primo stuff fellas, crazy and confusing as it shoulda been....

    Erich, Willis' book relates that the III. Gruppe got hammered badly... The exact text is:

    "They were attacked by Mustangs over and South of Madgeburg following a failed attempt to attack the bombers and suffered HEAVY losses...."

    So Erich, there is atleast one confirmed kill by III gruppe, that of Hagedorn of 9. Staffel... Willi's book shows these victoriess....

    As for IV./JG301, the losses were pathetic.... Bunch of newbies transferred from III./KG77 having flown the He 1777... For all of them it was their first mission against American fighters and bombers.... Their losses were:

    Oberfahnich Rummel of 13. Staffel shot down
    Oberfahnich Backer of 13. wounded crash landed
    Feldwebel Hasenkopf of 13. wounded parachuted
    Unteroffizer Heilberger of 13. shot down
    Oberleutnant Patek, Staffelkapitan of 13. shot down
    Unteroffizer Zietlow of 13. shot down
    Unteroffizer Appel of 14. shot down
    Unteroffizer Bayerl 14. wounded parachuted
    Fahnrich Ruh of 15. shot down
    Unteroffizer Hornschuh of 15. shotdown parachuted
    Fahnrich Blechschmidt of 15. wounded parachuted
    Unteroffizer Keil of 15. shotdown
    Unteroffizer Welsch of 15. shotdown

    IV./JG301 was disbanded in early April because of this mission...

    Im getting a real good situation for this video mission guys.... Ur filling the holes perfectly... The game however wont really allow me to make this mission as realistic as the actual days combats shows.... Will probably limit it to the 152's and 190's of III. Gruppe (22 total) and the 109's of IV. Gruppe (22 total) verses the 3rd Division B-17's, probably put about 30 of them up, and the P-51's of the 353rd FG (40 of them)... Then Ill add in another 20 or so P-51's of the 78th FG comin to the rescue....

    I'll start out with the Tanks at 24k, the 109G-10's at 22k and the 190's at the same altitude as the bombers, around 18k....

    I may have to cut the numbers down some so the computer dont glitch out.... Trial and error....

    Question.... Was there a mix of P-51D's and C's between these FG's??? What was the majority of Mustangs???
     
  20. lesofprimus

    lesofprimus Active Member

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    P-51's of the 353rd at 21k...
     
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