2 March, 1945... The Ta 152H's Almost Defining Moment...

[Erich]

D ~ I've got a splitting Migraine due to this last of the oral surgeries I have undergone this morn.

this is from the 357th fg and think the 109's were from JG 300, BUT I can say with pretty much proximity that III./JG 301 10-12 Fw 190A's were in the area-mostly around Magdeburg but when not engaged with B-17's and with US Mustangs the fights were everywhere ............ this for your reference, note the altitude engaged of this example.

think you are on the monies about the 78th fg for starts

Bill ........ ?

 

[drgondog]

Man...... Going through this excellent info, theres 3 ways of doing this, or one way with 3 seperate parts....... One way or the other, I think its gonna be too much for the game to handle...

Heres what I gathered from the two of u... Corrections are necessary and a couple of questions to boot....



The 78th FG/83rd FS with 15 P-51's bounces 24 Bf 109G-10's of IV/JG301 from 21k to 15k feet... 8 commence the bounce with 7 covering down behind them....

Then, the 503rdFS/339thFG with 20+ P-51's hit mixed up 190's and 109's, followed shortly by the 505th with another 20+ Mustangs...

3rd (13 B-17's per Squadron, 4 Squadrons to a Group = 52 CORRECT???) is at 24-26k feet being covered by the 353rd 357th FG's, each with 20+ P-51C/D's, flying at 28k feet... Total of 40+ P-51's.... They bounce III/JG301 at 27k feet...

Does this seem close fellas???

Very close except for the B-17s. The SOP in 1944 and 1945 was four squadrons of 9 for a standard Bomb Group of 36. A maximum effort would attempt 12 to a squadron for 48

The 55th, 78th, 339th, 353rd and 357FG were 66 FW which normally means they would have been covering the 3rd Division B-17s. They were that day so that is reason that the 78th and 339th and 353rd and 357 were engaged and everyone else played with themselves.

The one BG that lost 4 B-17s to fighters in the Ruhland-Dresden-Chemnitz are was the 385th BG. It was distinguishable by a red checkerboard pattern on their rudders with a black squadron code letter in the center. It was in the 4th Combat Wing which was comprised of 94th (Square A), 447th (Square K), 436th (not sure) and the 385th.

The key note here from historical POV is that the only successful attack by LW fighters on the B-17s was well below and SE of Magdeburg so the air to air battles with the Doras (352FG) and then 109s/190A8s in that area were mostly (353rd and 357th) ranging from NE Leipzig and heading S/SE.

By looking at the routes I suspect the 78FG might have been sweeping out in front of the 3rd Bomb Division in the Magdeburg/Burg area when they spotted 109s in formation and heading to the SE.

 

[lesofprimus]

Hmmm, so we (me flying Willi Reschkes' crate) are covering an attack towards the 4th Combat Wing, singleing out the 385th BG, of which there were 36 B-17's in 4 squadrons, at 24k....

AS our eyes are searching for the Bomber string, we get jumped by the 83rdFS/78thFG, which entailed 15 P-51C/D's.... After my Tanks take care of these pesky bastards, the 503rdFS/339th attempts to hit my fellow brothers of III Gruppe... While playing with these young fellas, the 505thFS/339thFG joins the fray...

After we take care of them, my boys in III Gruppe, along with the boys flying the G-10's of IV Gruppe, get their sights set on the 385th BG, and then we get bounced once again by the 353rd and 357th FG's on the way in....

Jesus Aged Christ, how am I supposed to survive this???

 

[drgondog]

Hmmm, so we (me flying Willi Reschkes' crate) are covering an attack towards the 4th Combat Wing, singleing out the 385th BG, of which there were 36 B-17's in 4 squadrons, at 24k....

AS our eyes are searching for the Bomber string, we get jumped by the 83rdFS/78thFG, which entailed 15 P-51C/D's.... After my Tanks take care of these pesky bastards, the 503rdFS/339th attempts to hit my fellow brothers of III Gruppe... While playing with these young fellas, the 505thFS/339thFG joins the fray...

After we take care of them, my boys in III Gruppe, along with the boys flying the G-10's of IV Gruppe, get their sights set on the 385th BG, and then we get bounced once again by the 353rd and 357th FG's on the way in....

Jesus Aged Christ, how am I supposed to survive this???

You wouldn't - lol. Apparently the 109s whacked by the 78th never saw the 51s steaming at them from their six. If you replaced the 109s with Ta 152's, the first 152 squadron would have been hurt in THAT scenario. Severl, maybe many would have suffered (in real life) from a crappy tactical position against very good performing fighters and skilled, experienced pilots.

Getting out of a furball like that first one would have required all the skill a great pilot could bring - turning it to your advantage would have been 'priceless'. Good luck 'Buff.

 

[lesofprimus]

So the scenario I posted up that u quoted seems "Real" enough Bill to try and pull off this "what if" mission???

 

[Erich]

D ~ simplify the scenario, forget the 109's altogether and use the Tanks above the III./JG 301 A-8 and A-8/R2's attacking 3rd BD B-17's ?

now the what if - Tanks mixing it with the Mustangs of the 357th, 353rd ? .......that could be wild !

just a thought

~ E ~

 

[lesofprimus]

Well, the whole point was to show what would happen if instead of the 109's attacking the Tanks, they teamed up and defended the Sturm attack....

Maybe if they join up at 27k, then the G-10's drop below the 152's as medium cover for the 190A-8's with the Tanks as high cover, basically 3 levels of fighters at staggering altitudes...

 

[Erich]

I wonder, personally I would have the G-10's perform against the Mustangs and in high cover for the Fw 190A-8/A-9's of III. gruppe, still wondering where to put the Tanks though

3 staggered positions is a possibility if you deal with these guys flying at an upper goof level of 38,000 ft to drop down when necessary

one thing to bring into this knowing full well is : the IV./JG 301 109 pilots are all in-experienced except for the Staffel leaders - they being the Gefreiter/Unteroffiziers are going to follow the lead craft no-matter what until engaged, and get those bloody drop tanks off will ya !!

 

[lesofprimus]

Good point on the drop tanks, forgot about that.... Still need to think this out more....

If the Ta 152's were jumped by the G-10's at 25k plus, how the hell did the G-10's get down to 15k when they were bounced by the 83rd FS??? Mayhem of combat???

The trick is guys, trying to make a hypothetically correct mission out of the fu*ked up disaster it was in reality once those retarded noobs of IV Gruppe attacked the Tanks...

 

[lesofprimus]

So could it be a reality that the 12 Tanks were at 35k, the G-10's formed up at 30k and the 190A-9's were at bomber level at 24k???

 

[Erich]

I'm truly wondering D ~ if the IV./JG 301 jumped it's own Tanks or was this IV./JG 300 109's ? ( Reschke could be wrong again ) that unit did not have that much experience either and was nailed by Mustangs as well as the rest of the JG 300 this date

without a doubt IV./JG 301 got nailed near Burg and the area vicinity by the 78th and later the 339th

again it appears that some 109 LW unit did not know or eer heard of nor seen Ta 152's in the air. without looking at data buried not sure how many Ta's were flying on this mission, III. gruppe had a truck load of them but not all 35 were ever in the air at once

 

[lesofprimus]

Well, we'll see how the skin aspect of this works out E.... If GauGeist cant come up with a decent skin(s) for me for the G-10's, we may have to resort to the 109 skins from JG300, of which there are numerous examples....

It might actually be better for the simulation, if u think it could infact have been the crates of IV./JG300 that did the bounce on Willi... He did state that they recognized the yellow/red fuselage band, instead of a solid red, but ..........................

Mistakes happen....

Any idea if Aufhammer was flying this mission?? I know that Stahl was leading the Tank Staffel....

 

[drgondog]

So the scenario I posted up that u quoted seems "Real" enough Bill to try and pull off this "what if" mission???

seems real enough for any 'day in the short life of LW fighters at that stage of the war - and very close to the 'reconstruction' possible from the combined bomber and fighter encounter reports and macrs..

Great job on the other video you put together..

 

[Erich]

~ D I am going to have to look further. Re: why I think it may have been JG 300 109's is that the JG 301's were bounced around Burg and scattered and not a unifying force anymore as they were engaged in a death struggle to keep alive with the 78th fg and later the 339th. there is also a kill of a JG 301 G-10 by a Mustang of the 357th fg who of course were dealing death blows on JG 300 109's and Fw 190 heavies. Again and Bill knows full well the problem of associating to what US vs LW groups, in this case and it was common JG 300 and JG 301 were in the same area trying to clobber the bombers.

also for the JG 300 birds their defense tail band would of been blue/white/blue.

Reschke due to the materials he had on hand when the book was written in 1998 only had so much besides his own recollections and those of his buddies. Indeed your scenario and with Bills detailed help is starting get some answers out at least in my own head of what really happened or at least we are trying to piece meal this all together in an intelligent way.

 

[lesofprimus]

Thanks Bill....

Im having problems finding some skins for the Mustangs tho, as well as the G-10's... I have skins for the 353rdFG (5) the 357thFG (1) the 78thFG (2) and ZERO for the 338thFG...

 

[lesofprimus]

also for the JG 300 birds their defense tail band would of been blue/white/blue.

Hmmmm, not red huh???? That kinda changes things.. Ill have to look around the net again for the correct ones then.... Wonder what the hell I was lookin at...

Thanks for the info E, lets see what I turn up...

 

[lesofprimus]

BF 109 G10 Eberhard Gzik, Unit: 2./JG300

 

[Erich]

thats a fine looking skin of Gziks crate, now to get the red band off or just add yellow closer to the Balkenkreuz on the fuselage

 

[lesofprimus]

BF109 G14 AS, Pilot: Heinz-Paul Müller, Unit: 9./JG300

 

[lesofprimus]

thats a fine looking skin of Gziks crate, now to get the red band off or just add yellow closer to the Balkenkreuz on the fuselage

But its supposed to be JG300, which makes the red wwaaaaayyyy off, instead of the white/blue/white like these below....

BF 109 G10 Yellow 7, Unit: 3./JG300

BF 109 G10 Yellow 5, Unit: 3./JG300