4 engine german bombers , did they have any in service ?

Gixxerman · Jun 20, 2011

Lighthunmust said:
Correct me if I am wrong, but I think that He177s actually did bomb the U.K. some time mid-war.

Yes they did (along with Ju88s, Do 217s, Me410s Ju188s, the Ju188 mentioned as pathfinders, IIRC) in 'Operation Steinbock'.
Most of the books I've seen mention that the He177's diving ability (shallow diving from height) meant that they could get to somewhere around 400mph drop their bombs (like the talk of a 'much vaunted' Me110 this is always described as 'nervously dropping the bombs'......like as if any crew from any nation in WW2 would at the point of bombs away over enemy territory be anything but 'nervous') and then scream off for home keeping the speed as high as possible.
That is those that made it to target, lots did not because of technical failures - which is interesting becase many books say that the late A-5 version was all but cured of problems.

The tactic is invariably stated as allowing the craft to be immune to RAF interception (the sources I've come across say none were lost to the RAF's, by then highly effective radar directed equipped night-fighter force......the German use of duppel/window/chaff is also mentioned which must have helped too).

Juha · Jun 20, 2011

Hello Gixxerman
already during the first Steinbock raid (21-22 Jan 44) He 177A-3 (WNr 5747) of I./KG 40 was shot down by W/O Kemp/ F/Sgt Maidment of 151Sqn (Mossie XII) and another one from 2./KG 40 by F/O Nowell / F/Sgt Randall of 85Sqn

Juha

Glider · Jun 20, 2011

I believe that He177 units had heavy losses in the Steinbeck raids

Juha · Jun 20, 2011

Of the appr. 335 LW bombers lost during the Oper Steinbock at least 21 were He 177s. At the beginning of the Oper. there were 46 He 177s in the participating units, of which 42 were serviceable. On 20 March there were, after new units had arrived, 80, of which 39 were serviceable.

Juha

Tante Ju · Jun 21, 2011

Lighthunmust said:
Correct me if I am wrong, but I think that He177s actually did bomb the U.K. some time mid-war.

Author Blandford writes of Greif attacks on England. In 1943 lone 177s did recon, later armed reconossaince over UK. Take off from German border, climb to 9000 meter, take pictures and drop two 1000 kg bombs in daylight from altitude to disturb production. Uninterceptable. Spitfires sometimes make contact, but not could climb to them.. they gave up. Heinkel was too fast, and already at altitude. Return flight in shallow dive - too fast to make contact.. of course for crews very nervous thing, all alone sneaking into England.

In 31 March 1944 strenght reports show a total of 373 He 177s: 335 with units, 274 with operational units. Operational units performed 3491 take off during month; total 3986 takeoff.

Plane could fly 565 km/h, range 5600 km, bomb bay load was 7 tons maximum. Armament 20 cannons, 13 mm and 7.92mm machieguns. Stabilised gyro bomb sight, blind bombing equipment, crew and gunner positions armored. Variant existed for now called precision weapons: (manual) guided missiles and guided bombs. Also torpedoes.

Gixxerman · Jun 21, 2011

Thanks Juhu Tante Ju.
I've had a thing about the Heinkels for a while but there's not exactly a ton of info out there on them their operations (in English anyway). I can't see much on the operations on the Eastern front (barring some talk of the Stalingrad transport work).
I have the Manfred Griehl Joachim Dressel book and the J. Richard Smith Eddie J. Creek book but that's about it.

Glider said:
I believe that He177 units had heavy losses in the Steinbeck raids

From what I've seen most are due to technical failure and not interception/flak.

Juha · Jun 21, 2011

Hello Tante Ju
do you mean Edmund Blandford's Target England, Flying With The Luftwaffe in WWII? Did he give any dates for those He 177 recon flights and targets to those 1000kg bombs? I would like to know date and target info for cross-checking

Hello Gixxerman, most of those He 177s shot down during Steinbock were shot down by Mossies.

Juha

Hop · Jun 21, 2011

Author Blandford writes of Greif attacks on England. In 1943 lone 177s did recon, later armed reconossaince over UK. Take off from German border, climb to 9000 meter, take pictures and drop two 1000 kg bombs in daylight from altitude to disturb production. Uninterceptable.

According to Hooton in Eagle in Flames the Luftwaffe flew 67 daylight bombing sorties over the UK in 1943. More than half that total was flown in January and February. He says most attacks were at night, although there were some "unsuccessful" attacks that exploited cloud cover in the day.

All I can find in Blandford's Target England:

Juha · Jun 21, 2011

Thanks a lot, Hop!
Rather vague, I'd say. A cursory look on the Blitz Then and Now Vol 3 didn't reveal anything suitable but I'll try to find out time during next weekend to take a careful look on TBTaN.

Juha

Tante Ju · Jun 21, 2011

Yes this is same book of Blandford. He 177 operation of 1943 touched in these pages.

davparlr · Jun 21, 2011

Hop said:
According to Hooton in Eagle in Flames the Luftwaffe flew 67 daylight bombing sorties over the UK in 1943. More than half that total was flown in January and February. He says most attacks were at night, although there were some "unsuccessful" attacks that exploited cloud cover in the day.

All I can find in Blandford's Target England:

Probably more to this than meets the eye. The Spitfire Mk IX could easily reach 30k, having tested doing this in 10 min, with the Merlin 61 engine (8 minutes with the 66 or 70 engine), and has a top speed around 400 mph there. Of course there needed to be some anticipation. Perhaps the radar jamming allowed penetration before detection. Of course after the fall of '43, the P-51B Mustang could easily have run down the He having nearly 100 mph overtake at 30k, and the range to do so.

Tante Ju · Jun 21, 2011

Problem: climbing is done at perhaps 300 km/h, why enemy above you at 30 000 feet flies at 500 km/h.. enemy will outrun you and get out of sight by time get to altitude. Top speed may have been 400 mph, but you cant climb and fly at 400 mph at the same time... this is tactics, not technology question.

vikingBerserker · Jun 21, 2011

There was also the Do 19 which could carry almost 4k lbs and was used in the Polish campaign, albeit as a transport instead.

Always found it interesting that Germany was in the fore front of strategic bombers (basic bomber cockpit layout came from them in) in WW1, and had a number of prototypes built and flown during the Reich Years and even more designed, yet only really used very few in numbers.

Juha · Jun 22, 2011

Tante Ju
fairly fast high flying lone plane was a difficult interception target and He 177 had high max speed for a heavy bomber, but He 177A-5 max level speed at 25,5ton weight (max t/o weight 31 tons) at Steig und Kampf power was not very near 500kmh even at 7500m where its speed graph ends. Its speed was decreasing fast at those heights.

Juha

Hop · Jun 22, 2011

Rather vague, I'd say. A cursory look on the Blitz Then and Now Vol 3 didn't reveal anything suitable but I'll try to find out time during next weekend to take a careful look on TBTaN.

Yes, there's very little about the He177 in Blandford's book. There's a couple of paragraphs before the text I posted, going in to the accidents etc that plagued the development programme. The text I posted is the only stuff on 177 operations in the whole book.

I bought it because Kurfurst, like Tante Ju, kept using it as a source for the invulnerability of Luftwaffe operations over the UK.

Hooton says the Luftwaffe made 10 daylight bomber sorties over Britain in the summer of 1943, all in July. Unfortunately he only gives losses for combined day and night bombing. He does give details for German recce sorties over Britain in 1943, though:

Month - Sorties - Losses
Jan - 3 - 2
Feb - 23 - 2
Mar - 38 - 3
Apr - 26 - 3
May - 25 - 4
Jun - 12 - 4
Jul - 14 - 6
Aug - 17 - 4
Sep - 25 - 4
Oct - 3 - 1
Nov - 0 - 0
Dec - 1 - 0
Total - 187 - 33 (17.6%)

No wonder the pilot was nervous. Very nearly half the recce aircraft that set out in July didn't make it back to base.

Probably more to this than meets the eye. The Spitfire Mk IX could easily reach 30k, having tested doing this in 10 min, with the Merlin 61 engine (8 minutes with the 66 or 70 engine), and has a top speed around 400 mph there. Of course there needed to be some anticipation. Perhaps the radar jamming allowed penetration before detection.

Yes. From the pilot's own description they weren't particularly high or fast. The very low level of German activity probably helped by reducing RAF readiness.

Gixxerman · Jun 23, 2011

Juha said:
Hello Tante Ju
do you mean Edmund Blandford's Target England, Flying With The Luftwaffe in WWII?

Thank you guys, another purchase coming up!

davparlr · Jun 23, 2011

Tante Ju said:
Problem: climbing is done at perhaps 300 km/h, why enemy above you at 30 000 feet flies at 500 km/h.. enemy will outrun you and get out of sight by time get to altitude. Top speed may have been 400 mph, but you cant climb and fly at 400 mph at the same time... this is tactics, not technology question.

And that is why I said they needed some anticipation.

Juha · Jun 26, 2011

Juha said:
Thanks a lot, Hop!
Rather vague, I'd say. A cursory look on the Blitz Then and Now Vol 3 didn't reveal anything suitable but I'll try to find out time during next weekend to take a careful look on TBTaN.

Juha

Hello
nothing in The Blitz Then and Now Vol 3, no incident of note in Birmingham during the summer 1943 according to it. Of course it is possible that the 2 bombs did no worthwhile damage but on the other hand according to this site Birmingham in the Blitz: Where the bombs fell - Birmingham in the Blitz news - Birmingham Blitz - In depth - News - Birmingham Mail
the last bomb dropped on Birmingham was dropped 23-24 April 1943.

Juha

Vahe Demirjian · Dec 28, 2019

Thorlifter said:
Heinkel had the He-274 and He-277, but only a few were built of each. Junkers had the Ju-89, but again, only a couple were built. I'm not sure of any others.

It's known that just two He 274s were built, but the He 277 was never built and references to He 277 prototypes in some older books on Nazi aviation are due to the four-engine He 177B being confused with the He 277, since design work on the He 177B began late August 1943, months after the He 277 was first proposed in February (see Heinkel He 277 - Wikipedia"He_177B"_versus_He_277_controversy).

Also, Dornier had a pre-WW2 effort at a strategic bomber, the Dornier Do 19, which flew in October 1936, but just three prototypes were built, and the Do 19 never entered production.

glennasher · Dec 28, 2019

I have seen photos of the FW-200 Condor with a broken "spine", where it was stated that it couldn't carry a lot of weight (bombload). Presumably, it wouldn't make a very good long range bomber (in fairness, it was designed as a long distance maritime patrol plane or passenger plane, not as a bomber). It was the attempts to make it do a job it wasn't designed for, that caused the mishaps.

4 engine german bombers , did they have any in service ?

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