617th squadron and the bunkers in Ijmuiden.

[Marcel]

I re-read Paul Brickhill's book "Dam busters" about the 617th squadron. It repeatedly talks about attacks on U-boat bunkers at IJmuiden ( near Amsterdam ). To my knowledge, there never were U-boat bunkers in IJmuiden. It's he actually talking about the Schnellboot bunkers there? Does anybody know what 617th attacked repeatedly in IJmuiden?

 

[fubar57]

Any dates Marcel?

 

[fubar57]

From here.... Dambusters

 

[Marcel]

From here.... Dambusters

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End '44-beginning '45
Thanks, it does say U-boat pens, but I'm pretty sure there weren't any. Must have been the Schnellboot bunkers, but they are still there, or at least one of them and still in tact.

 

[fubar57]

617 Squadron ORB with relevant dates.

 

[Marcel]

617 Squadron ORB with relevant dates.

"Shipping" IJmuiden. Could be just the harbour?

 

[Wurger]

All seems to be correct except the name of the bunker. It has nothing in common with the submarines. It was never meant for subs but for motor torpedo boats. However people still call it the "U-boot bunker". But in fact it is the Schnellboot bunker. The images seen below taken soon after the war 1946/1947.

the pic source: Schnellbootbunker 2, Widerstandsnest 77 – Festung IJmuiden, The Netherlands

 

[Marcel]

All seems to be correct except the name of the bunker. It has nothing in common with the submarines. It was never meant for subs but for motor torpedo boats. However people still call it the "U-boot bunker". But in fact it is the Schnellboot bunker.

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the pic source: Schnellbootbunker 2, Widerstandsnest 77 – Festung IJmuiden, The Netherlands

Yeah, that's what I thought.

And on April 7th they attacked ships in the harbour. So no U-boot pens at all.

 

[Wurger]

Correct.

 

[Marcel]

Correct.

Fun thing is, one of those bunkers is still standing there. Quite remarkable after being bombed with Tallboy bombs.

 

[Wurger]

Fun thing is, one of those bunkers is still standing there. Quite remarkable after being bombed with Tallboy bombs.

It has to be admitted, WW2 Germans built sturdily.

 

[Marcel]

It has to be admitted, WW2 Germans built sturdily.

Actually, many bunkers in the Netherlands were built by Dutch contractors.

 

[fubar57]

Some big a$$ craters there

 

[Wurger]

Actually, many bunkers in the Netherlands were built by Dutch contractors.

True. However these bunkers were designed by Germans and all the standards of building, the kind of the concrete etc were set by them. Also there are their bunkers at my vicinity and all of them still look fine. Most of them was built not only by German workers but also by the forced laborers or CC prisoners as well.

 

[Jabberwocky]

It has to be admitted, WW2 Germans built sturdily.

Thinking that a building is going to be bombed or otherwise shot-at does wonders for the design in terms of durability.

I spent some time in Hamburg at the end of the 2000s and then again in the mid 2010s. At the end of the 2000s, one of the smaller Flak towers was basically abandoned and you could just walk in and climb to the top. It's since been converted into a power station.

The big St Pauli 'bunker' (a massive square Flak tower/air raid shelter) was occupied, but it was pretty run down and you could get inside and have a look. Hugely impressive, in a Cyclopean sort of fashion. The walls looked about 5m thick. It's recently been reworking into a fancy hotel and dining/entertainment precinct. Progress, of a sorts.

 

[Marcel]

Years ago I was at the Diogenes bunker near Arnhem. It is a big bunker where the Germans orchestrated their nightfighter defence near Arnhem. It is really big.
One time when the allies were really close, I don't remember if it was during Market Garden or in 1945, they filled it up with explosives and blew it up, or at least that was their intention. The blast lifted up the big 5m thick concrete roof, which then just fell back in place and needless to say, the bunker is still there, structurally perfectly sound.

 

[Snautzer01]

True. However these bunkers were designed by Germans and all the standards of building, the kind of the concrete etc were set by them. Also there are their bunkers at my vicinity and all of them still look fine. Most of them was built not only by German workers but also by the forced laborers or CC prisoners as well.

That was made easy because they standerized the bunkers. I have a pdf file with a lot of them in it.
It must have been like an ikea guide, thumb a bit through... mark what you like and et presto.
Drawings, material needs, etc.

There are still companies like Ballast Nedam that had then a big part in building those. I know of individuel fortunated families thad had their origin of wealth still today in this line of bussiness.
I have posted pictures of French worker building bunkers at the atlantic wall. Supervised bij an un armed German. Just guys working.
I can understand that workers just did the job. The wanted to eat and had bills.

 

[EwenS]

Flower in his 2002 book " A Hell of a Bomb" correctly identifies the structures attacked at Ijmuiden on 15 & 30 Dec 1944 by 617 squadron as E-boat pens.

The target on 29 Dec 1944 at Rotterdam was also the E-boat pens located at Waalhaven.

The 3 Feb 1945 raid saw the Ijmuiden pens targeted again, this time by 9 squadron, while 617 hit the midget sub wharf at Pootershaven.

8 Feb 617 went back to strike the Ijmuiden E-boat pens.

For the abortive raid (bad weather meant no bombing) on 6 April and the raid on 7 April Flowers refers not just to "shipping" at Ijmuiden, but more specifically to the "Sperrbrecher" (minesweeper) that had arrived there, at which point the port was isolated. SHAEF were worried it would be used as a blockship so denying use of the harbour to the Allies when captured. The initial plan was for 10 Tallboy aircraft from 617 plus another squadron with 1,000 pounders. It was changed to 15 Tallboy aircraft only, to prevent unnecesary Dutch civilian casualties from sticks of bombs going astray. A number of hits were claimed, and the ship was seen to be sinking when the aircraft left the scene.

 

[Snautzer01]

was changed to 15 Tallboy aircraft only, to prevent unnecesary Dutch civilian casualties from sticks of bombs going astray

That would have been a first.

Realley..

The allied cost more damage from the sky then Germans did and boy they did they try.

The Dutch payed for air support.

More likely then not, the planners had info on what penns they had to destroy.
By this time it was known that kriegs marine bunkers were way way beyond a 500 pound bomb.

Allies did think target first and then nothing.

Caen ring a bell? So many more..

Its war.

 

[EwenS]

That would have been a first.

Realley..

The allied cost more damage from the sky then Germans did and boy they did they try.

The Dutch payed for air support.

More likely then not, the planners had info on what penns they had to destroy.
By this time it was known that kriegs marine bunkers were way way beyond a 500 pound bomb.

Allies did think target first and then nothing.

Caen ring a bell? So many more..

Its war.

The raid on 6/7 April wasn't targeting the E-boat pens. The target was the Sperrbrecher tied up at the quayside. I thought that was clear from my post.

But 15 Tallboys seems like overkill for that target. Seems like it was 617's bombing accuracy that was needed.

Edit - With Tirpitz the objective wasn't to hit the ship, it was to put all the Tallboys into a box a few hundred yards square with Tirpitz at its centre and hoping hits might happen while causing as much underwater damage from blast as possible. I can see the objective here being exactly the same.