MIflyer
1st Lieutenant
I just looked at the Mk II Hurricane maintenance manual. The ailerons are aluminum and steel with fabric covering.
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Hello MIflyerI just looked at the Mk II Hurricane maintenance manual. The ailerons are aluminum and steel with fabric covering.
The cut out portions of the aileron leading-edge where the hinge-brackets are mounted weren't completely sealed. Were specific factories and nations better at building and fixing them?Greyman said:Differences in manufacturing seems to me to be the biggest culprit. One example I pointed to here.
Was this lubrication standard maintained in different allied countries after 1941?A change in lubrication made a big difference in Hurricane roll performance at low temperatures.
Such as?Different testing/measuring methodologies could be the cause
Why would you want to alter the condition to that outside what the real plane would have?condition of the aircraft
How do you factor in the altitude differences?yeah I remember this from a previous discussion in another forum years ago (long before we had so many helpful documents available) about roll rate of some other planes. There is roll acceleration and roll rate at different lbs force, and roll rate at different speeds and also at different altitude. I remember the P-47 rolls very well at 25,000 ft but no so great down at 5,000 ft.
The cut out portions of the aileron leading-edge where the hinge-brackets are mounted weren't completely sealed. Were specific factories and nations better at building and fixing them?
Was this lubrication standard maintained in different allied countries after 1941?
Such as?
Why would you want to alter the condition to that outside what the real plane would have?
OkI can't speak to the Hurricane aileron situation, but it's something you often come across with aircraft (and tanks, guns, uniforms, cigarettes, everything). These things aren't built by precision robots and there are a million things that can slightly differ during manufacture. This can be consistent enough to lead to pilots--for example--distinctly preferring Seafires built at Cunliffe-Owen as opposed to Westland-built ones.
We took a perfectly good gun, and fixed it until it was broke...For a blindingly obvious situation look no further than the 20-mm Hispano in British manufacture vs. US manufacture.
So certain things weren't exported with all the bells and whistles, there were limits in resources due to merchant raiding and things of that sort, linguistic barriers, and each nation doing things their own way?No idea. I would assume english-speaking countries were able to just get the latest manuals/amendments but I've occasionally seen gaps, shall we say, in support
You'd figure that indicated airspeed would cover that, though if you're having issues with indicated airspeed vs altitude you'd be dealing with issues like IAS/TAS or IAS/Mach?what altitudes
So in some cases they'd pick the best side, other times the worst? Frankly, I'm surprised they didn't just list both.which direction in rolling
Simpler, but less accurateboth directions averaged?
The faster would be theoretically closer to the absolute minimum, and would get the quickest deflection and get the fastest roll-acceleration from 0 dos to maximum, allowing one to gauge how quickly it'd initiate a roll and also stop the roll...how fast is the force applied to the stick
I thought almost all straight-winged planes used some rudder for this purpose?is the rudder used to assist the roll
Higher AoA would usually increase roll-rate, so I guess one could also factor in weight and g-load...is the nose kept level
The larger the closer the average roll rate is to the peak roll-rate...how large of a roll is to be measured, 45, 90, 360
I'd probably have been inclined to do both so as to tell pilots that as a rule you'll build up roll a certain number of degrees a second, then peaking at this amount maximum.does the measurement begin as soon as the force is applied or when maximum roll rate is achieved
What did they use?what apparatus is used to measure stick forces
I know that but if you're doing tests, you want to know what it can do *now* so pilots have hard figures they can use. For test purposes you'd do different stuff.What a 'real plane' is evolves over time.
Really? I'd have figured they were both Mk.V's...A Spitfire Mk.V in spring 1944 is a very different thing than a Spitfire V in spring 1941.
That's not what I meant: If altitude and IAS don't work out perfectly, what would you have used?One of the things about these tests which seems odd to us today is that sometimes major national Defense decisions were being made on the basis of just a few hours of testing on one plane (or two or three) which might just be a dud or having problems that day. As Greyman said manufacturing wasn't always consistent back then - and aircraft made in one factory could be twice as reliable or even 20 or 30 mph faster than the theoretically same aircraft made in another.Quite a few of these tests where they took 5 or 6 aircraft, one of the planes either wasn't running at all or was running at 3/4 power or something and they just went with the results they had anyway.
Yeah, that's what I'm kind of used to.Today for say, auto safety tests (let alone military kit) we would do multiple tests over and over and get an average.
How do you factor in the altitude differences?
What did they use?
Really? I'd have figured they were both Mk.V's...
Makes sense, I was curious about some kind of graphing idea which covers altitude and IAS. I figured it'd have to be some kind of 3D chart lol.I don't know, test at 3 or 4 altitudes instead of just at 10,000 ft?
I remember being told that it was the best in the USAAF inventory.All I know is that i was told in a similar discussion to this years ago on another forum that P-47s had excellent roll and overall handling at 25,000 ft and they quoted some numbers and sources.
Frankly, it's my opinion that we should have built a larger attack replacement for the A-36 like an Army AD actually.Down near Sea Level P-47 is kind of a dud though in many respects.
What's that?The RAE was using a 'Henschel stick force indicator' for a certain period in 1940.
OkThey certainly are both Spitfire Vs, but the one in 1944 incorporates hundreds of official modifications -- introduced incrementally over the years.
What's that?
The P40's weren't free. We paid for all the Tomahawks (1180) and the first Kittyhawks (560) with hard cash. The rest were on Lend-Lease which we finally paid off in 2006.I sure appreciate learning more about the P40. It's hard to research it for a newb like me.
To me, it seems like the British followed a lot of logic to send out the P40's to its allies and keep what they know and build at home. That and good firepower, reliability and armor makes sense that they used it in place of their Hurricanes. Plus they were free and the Hurricanes cost something.
I sure appreciate learning more about the P40. It's hard to research it for a newb like me.
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You might find these sites informative:I sure appreciate learning more about the P40. It's hard to research it for a newb like me.
To me, it seems like the British followed a lot of logic to send out the P40's to its allies and keep what they know and build at home. That and good firepower, reliability and armor makes sense that they used it in place of their Hurricanes. Plus they were free and the Hurricanes cost something.
The P40's weren't free. We paid for all the Tomahawks (1180) and the first Kittyhawks (560) with hard cash. The rest were on Lend-Lease which we finally paid off in 2006.
You have to also take into consideration that Britain was in a precarious position not only in Europe but her Commonwealth territories across the globe when war broke out.I sure appreciate learning more about the P40. It's hard to research it for a newb like me.
To me, it seems like the British followed a lot of logic to send out the P40's to its allies and keep what they know and build at home. That and good firepower, reliability and armor makes sense that they used it in place of their Hurricanes.