A Critical Analysis of the RAF Air Superiority Campaign in India, Burma and Malaya in 1941-45

[Kevin J]

So they were used the same way as the P-40 in the CBI which was the top scoring fighter in that theatre. So no problem. Against the Ki-43-I/II the Hurricane IIb Trop had higher level and dive speeds, heavier armament and better armour protection. Against a II-Kai onwards you really need a Spitfire. Monsoon time in India is May to October. Earliest available Vb Trop was Feb 42 in Malta, Summer 42 for Vc. Others all went to North Africa in 1942. Maybe if we hadn't given USSR 200 Vb's early 43 then India could have got them in time for their Monsoon season when little flying took place.

Best that could have been done for our Hurricanes in November 1942 would have been mods as per Sea Hurricane IIc which would have given them another 13 mph and strengthened wing as per Hurricane IV to increase dive speed to 450 mph.

 

[wuzak]

Best that could have been done for our Hurricanes in November 1942 would have been mods as per Sea Hurricane IIc which would have given them another 13 mph and strengthened wing as per Hurricane IV to increase dive speed to 450 mph.

What mods?

 

[Kevin J]

What mods?

On the Sea Hurricane it was individual exhaust stacks changes to radio mast. Don't know what they did to the IV but it could dive at 450 max.

 

[PAT303]

So they were used the same way as the P-40 in the CBI which was the top scoring fighter in that theatre. So no problem. Against the Ki-43-I/II the Hurricane IIb Trop had higher level and dive speeds, heavier armament and better armour protection. Against a II-Kai onwards you really need a Spitfire. Monsoon time in India is May to October. Earliest available Vb Trop was Feb 42 in Malta, Summer 42 for Vc. Others all went to North Africa in 1942. Maybe if we hadn't given USSR 200 Vb's early 43 then India could have got them in time for their Monsoon season when little flying took place.

The RAF could not win with the Hurricane or P40 in 1942 in any theatre, for that you needed Spitfires.

 

[RCAFson]

The fact that Hurricane pilots only attacked from a position of advantage and continued diving away after the engagement, and were forbidden to dogfight JAAF aircraft only strengthens the argument as to it's obsolescence.

Those were the instructions given to almost all Allied fighters.

 

[Mad Dog]

The RAF could not win with the Hurricane or P40 in 1942 in any theatre, for that you needed Spitfires.

Possibly, but the whole idea of bringing the Spitfire to the theatre was because we did not want parity, we wanted superiority, and that is what the Spitfire delivered, first in the Med and then in the Far East. As a pilot, would you want to fly the Hurricane or P-40 against the Ki-43 and know you had a 60:40 chance, or a Spitfire VIII and know the enemy has virtually no chance?

 

[Greyman]

Don't know what they did to the IV but it could dive at 450 max.

So could the earlier marks, I'm not sure what the reasoning was behind the 390 mph limit in the Pilot's Notes. If I had to guess I'd say safety considerations re: elevator stiffness.

 

[Kevin J]

So could the earlier marks, I'm not sure what the reasoning was behind the 390 mph limit in the Pilot's Notes. If I had to guess I'd say safety considerations re: elevator stiffness.

I thought it was 370 with fabric covered wings and 410 for metal.

 

[Greyman]

Everything I have says 390 mph ASI. All marks.

Except for early versions of the Mk.I notes, which have no dive speed limit, just RPM limits.

edit: found an early amendment insert for Mk.I notes which lists 380 IAS.

 

[GrauGeist]

The RAF could not win with the Hurricane or P40 in 1942 in any theatre, for that you needed Spitfires.

But the Hurricane and the P-40 (along with the F4F) were not only holding the Japanese, but pushing back.
When the Spitfire first arrived in the PTO/CBI, it suffered high losses and it's short range put it initially at a disadvantage.
So the Spitfire wasn't a "magic bullet".

 

[Kevin J]

But the Hurricane and the P-40 (along with the F4F) were not only holding the Japanese, but pushing back.
When the Spitfire first arrived in the PTO/CBI, it suffered high losses and it's short range put it initially at a disadvantage.
So the Spitfire wasn't a "magic bullet".

Until the Spitfire VIII arrived in 1944. Then it was game, set and match.

 

[PAT303]

But the Hurricane and the P-40 (along with the F4F) were not only holding the Japanese, but pushing back.
When the Spitfire first arrived in the PTO/CBI, it suffered high losses and it's short range put it initially at a disadvantage.
So the Spitfire wasn't a "magic bullet".

The only reason the Hurricane and P40 were used was because there was nothing else, the MkV running 16 psi boost could take on anything it met except the FW190, that problem was solved with the MkIX. Those three planes along with the Me109F/G where in another league compared to the Hurri and P40.

 

[Wildcat]

Until the Spitfire VIII arrived in 1944. Then it was game, set and match.

True. If only the PTO based squadrons had something to shoot down...

 

[GrauGeist]

There seems to be a misconception that the Allied fighters in the CBI were ineffective until the Spitfire arrived in 1943/44 and this is not quite true.

The Allies had (in addition to the Hurricane IIA/C and P-40B/C/E) the P-43A-1and Mohawk (replaced by Spit VIII in Jan 44, by the way) all of which contributed in reducing the numbers of IJA and IJN aircraft and pilots until newer Allied types became available.

The Japanese were feeling the pressure so much by 1943, that the 2nd Hiko Chutai pressed several captured P-40Es into service during the defense of Rangoon. This is a pretty good indicator of how things were going by the time the Spitfires were starting to arrive in theater.

 

[XBe02Drvr]

Funny how we all seem to see history's details through the lenses of our own national narrative. Keeps things interesting.
Cheers,
Wes

 

[GrauGeist]

In my case, I see history through the details.

In my recent post, I wasn't listing all the fighter types present in the theater, just the ones that were effective at stopping the Japanese.

Otherwise, I would have incuded such types as the P-66, I-15, Boomerang, P-26, CR.32, Buffalo, D.510, Wirraway, I-16, CW-21B, I-153 and so on.

Hardly flag-waving, right?

 

[Wildcat]

But the Hurricane and the P-40 (along with the F4F) were not only holding the Japanese, but pushing back.

Not only that, but it could be argued that they were also facing the cream of he crop in regards to Japanese aviators. P-40's and F4F's whittled away the Tainan Kokutai in 1942 for example.

 

[Greyman]

Funny how we all seem to see history's details through the lenses of our own national narrative. Keeps things interesting.
Cheers,
Wes

Not my fault that the Spitfire is the high-water mark technical, creative and artistic achievement of human civilization.

 

[PAT303]

There seems to be a misconception that the Allied fighters in the CBI were ineffective until the Spitfire arrived in 1943/44 and this is not quite true.

The Allies had (in addition to the Hurricane IIA/C and P-40B/C/E) the P-43A-1and Mohawk (replaced by Spit VIII in Jan 44, by the way) all of which contributed in reducing the numbers of IJA and IJN aircraft and pilots until newer Allied types became available.

The Japanese were feeling the pressure so much by 1943, that the 2nd Hiko Chutai pressed several captured P-40Es into service during the defense of Rangoon. This is a pretty good indicator of how things were going by the time the Spitfires were starting to arrive in theater.

The argument is the P40 and Hurricane were effective front line fighters which they weren't, both, and the much maligned Zero were second line fighters from 1942-43 onwards.

 

[PAT303]

Not my fault that the Spitfire is the high-water mark technical, creative and artistic achievement of human civilization.

Doesn't the Mustang have that award?, it shot down the entire Luftwaffe single handedly, the History channel said so so it must be true.