A Critical Analysis of the RAF Air Superiority Campaign in India, Burma and Malaya in 1941-45

[pbehn]

A Hurricane II and a Ki43 in 1942/3 is basically the same in 1944 so the case and argument stands

The Hurricane was obsolete in 1940 and should have been replaced by Typhoons or Tornados

 

[KiwiBiggles]

The Hurricane was obsolete in 1940 and should have been replaced by Typhoons or Tornados

Terrific. We'll just go without for a couple of years, until the Typhoon's ready. Far better that than the embarrassment of been seen wearing last-years model.

 

[pbehn]

Terrific. We'll just go without for a couple of years, until the Typhoon's ready. Far better that than the embarrassment of been seen wearing last-years model.

Not the point I was making, as per the planning in 1938/39 both the Hurricane and the Merlin should have been replaced by 1942. It was the failure of the Typhoon/Tornado and improvements to the Merlin that meant the Hurricane being kept in service long past its sell by date.

 

[Glider]

This might be of interest. I think you can just read it

 

[wuzak]

Not the point I was making, as per the planning in 1938/39 both the Hurricane and the Merlin should have been replaced by 1942. It was the failure of the Typhoon/Tornado and improvements to the Merlin that meant the Hurricane being kept in service long past its sell by date.

The Hurricane and Spitfire were to be replaced by the Typhoon/Tornado.

The Merlin was used in other types (such as the Halifax and, eventually, the Lancaster), so was not on the chopping block.

 

[Kevin J]

Many of the Hurricanes used in the CBI had two of their 20MM guns removed. Of course that probably was to help them when carrying bombs.

The Russians modified their Hurricane IIb's to have two 20 mm and two 0.5 in guns. It improved turning circle and roll rate and had twice the firepower of a Bf 109F. They used it successfully in the first five months of 1942, so it definitely wasn't obsolete at that time, exactly the same time when it was having problems in the Far East.

 

[Kevin J]

A Hurricane II and a Ki43 in 1942/3 is basically the same in 1944 so the case and argument stands

In 1941/42 the Hurricane II will be taking on the long wing Ki-43-1, in 42/43 the long wing Ki-43-II as opposed to 43/44 the short wing Ki-43-II-Kai so you need the Spitfire Vc to combat it and 44/45, the Spitfire VIII to combat the short wing Ki-43-III-Kai. So there are differences in armament, roll rate and max dive speed and top speed to deal with.

 

[pbehn]

The Hurricane and Spitfire were to be replaced by the Typhoon/Tornado.

The Merlin was used in other types (such as the Halifax and, eventually, the Lancaster), so was not on the chopping block.

It was a slow process from the Vulture and Sabre being delayed to having fewer and later to then having no vultures at all and the Sabre being used solely on the Typhoon.

 

[Glider]

In 1941/42 the Hurricane II will be taking on the long wing Ki-43-1, in 42/43 the long wing Ki-43-II as opposed to 43/44 the short wing Ki-43-II-Kai so you need the Spitfire Vc to combat it and 44/45, the Spitfire VIII to combat the short wing Ki-43-III-Kai. So there are differences in armament, roll rate and max dive speed and top speed to deal with.

The Hurricane was obsolete from the beginning of their introduction in the theatre of war until the end. They were even given a hard time by the Ki27 an aircraft they should have run rings around

In 1941/42 the Hurricane II will be taking on the long wing Ki-43-1, in 42/43 the long wing Ki-43-II as opposed to 43/44 the short wing Ki-43-II-Kai so you need the Spitfire Vc to combat it and 44/45, the Spitfire VIII to combat the short wing Ki-43-III-Kai. So there are differences in armament, roll rate and max dive speed and top speed to deal with.

The Hurricane was obsolete at the start of the campaign and even more obsolete at the end. The difference in the Ki43 only magnified the problem and its worth remembering that the Hurricanes had a difficult time dealing with the Ki27

 

[pinsog]

Glider is correct. The later model KI43 had a top speed of around 350, pilot armor and self sealing tanks. The KI43 also did not have the loss of roll at high speed that the Zero suffered from and as I understand could outturn a Zero at low speed as well. There is actually nothing I can think of that a Hurricane can do to evade a KI43 unless they are at altitude and the Hurricane can dive away. (And the Hurricane was never known to be a particularly good diver either)

I got the impression after reading Bloody Shambles volume 3 that the KI43 with armor and tank protection could hold its own with about anything. Hurricanes seemed to be meat on the table, Spitfires faired a little better. P40's could dive and take a pretty good beating and still survive. I was very surprised at how the "slow, underarmed KI43" shot down P47's, P38's, photo recon Spitfire's, photo recon Mosquitoes, F5 recon Lightning's, B24's etc. In fact, I think they were doing better at it than the Luftwaffe.

 

[MIflyer]

Recently read "Hurricane The Last Witnesses" and pilots who flew them in the Med as well as the CBI put it bluntly, "They had 5000 Hurricanes in the U.K and they had to do something with them. So they sent them to us."

They did say that the Hurricane was a marvelous strafer against Japanese ground troops.

They have a nice color shot of an an all black Mark IIC of 87 Squadron, 10 Group. I'll see if I can scan it.

 

[pbehn]

An aircraft becomes obsolete when others get better, it is still the same plane and can do all it ever did. In some cases very old types can achieve remarkable things, that doesn't mean that it wasn't obsolete.

 

[Kevin J]

The Hurricane was obsolete from the beginning of their introduction in the theatre of war until the end. They were even given a hard time by the Ki27 an aircraft they should have run rings around

The Hurricane was obsolete at the start of the campaign and even more obsolete at the end. The difference in the Ki43 only magnified the problem and its worth remembering that the Hurricanes had a difficult time dealing with the Ki27

Sure it had difficulty dealing with the Ki-27 when it was carrying long range tanks. It fared better without them and when it had adequate warning of incoming raids. The AVG did brilliantly. They had two things going for them. The P-40 was a superior plane and the Chinese Observer Corps tracked incoming raids from the moment they took off from their airfields. There was no British Observer Corps in either Burma or Malaya and the Indian Observer Corps was lousy. The Sea Hurricane and Hurricane between them shot down about 6000 enemy aircraft during the war in British and Commonwealth service, that's not what you call an obsolete plane. In the Far East, they encountered difficulties with radar effectiveness, a complete lack of a working observer corps, European fighter tactics and an armament that should have been halved and tropical filters that could have been improved on. Yes, lots of problems that resulted in a 'shambles'. On the ground, the army lacked transports to re-supply units that had been cut off, and no clear USMC like strategy of 'an advance to the sea' as occurred ten years later in Korea. Obsolete, definitely not.

 

[parsifal]

This link might be useful regarding the ki-43

Nakajima Ki-43

 

[Kevin J]

This link might be useful regarding the ki-43

Nakajima Ki-43

I've seen that before, its very good.

 

[pinsog]

The Hurricane had 0 cards to play against a KI43. It couldn't turn nearly as well, it climbed slower, didn't dive that much better, and had about the same top speed. If a KI43 and a Hurricane saw each other from the same altitude, neither with an advantage, with equal pilots, the Hurricane was probably done. All the KI43 has to do is start climbing and turning and soon he's behind the Hurricane. Hurricane MIGHT be able to dive and run. Maybe. A P40 can always roll over and dive away(with any altitude), he's pretty fast on the level below 15,000 and I believe quite a bit tougher than a Hurricane.

A KI43 is at least a handful of not better than a Spitfire V. I'd rather fight a KI43 in a Dauntless than a Hurricane, at least I have a radial engine and a rear gunner

 

[Glider]

Sure it had difficulty dealing with the Ki-27 when it was carrying long range tanks. It fared better without them and when it had adequate warning of incoming raids. The AVG did brilliantly. They had two things going for them. The P-40 was a superior plane and the Chinese Observer Corps tracked incoming raids from the moment they took off from their airfields. There was no British Observer Corps in either Burma or Malaya and the Indian Observer Corps was lousy. The Sea Hurricane and Hurricane between them shot down about 6000 enemy aircraft during the war in British and Commonwealth service, that's not what you call an obsolete plane. In the Far East, they encountered difficulties with radar effectiveness, a complete lack of a working observer corps, European fighter tactics and an armament that should have been halved and tropical filters that could have been improved on. Yes, lots of problems that resulted in a 'shambles'. On the ground, the army lacked transports to re-supply units that had been cut off, and no clear USMC like strategy of 'an advance to the sea' as occurred ten years later in Korea. Obsolete, definitely not.

Clearly you are allowed your own opinion and you have a belief which you will not change despite all the evidence and the views of the pilots at the time. If you haven't already I suggest you read the Bloody Shambles series which should open your eyes a little.
You will see that when fighting the Ki27 long range tanks on the Hurricanes were very unusual, that both sides didn't much have radar (the IJAAF having none) and that didn't stop the Hurricanes taking severe losses.
I also notice that you haven't supplied any evidence to support your belief which says a lot about the strength of your case. Finally you haven't explained why a Hurricane with 6 x LMG would be so much better than a IIa with eight the difference in weight being almost negligable

 

[RCAFson]

Not at the start. On the Spitfire Vb, the 30 gal was the combat tank, the 45 gal was the drop tank and the 90 gal was the ferry tank. Its only in 1942 with the Spitfire Vc that you get the 170 gal ferry tank with an extra 29 gal tank behind the pilot. The problem with the 45/90 gal tanks was they didn't always detach properly. I think you'll find that the Spitfires in the Med were rigged up with the Kittyhawks drop tanks as detachment was more reliable and the desert survival kit behind the pilot was re-arranged to allow the use of the additional 29 gal tank. The BPF never used the slipper tanks. They used the drop tanks from RAAF Kittyhawks. The RAF don't have Kittyhawks in India, so none of their drop tanks.

IIRC, the Malta Spitfires initially used twinned 45 gallon Hurricane drop tanks.

All Spitfire slipper tanks were drop tanks and the RAAF Capstan Spitfires did drop 30G tanks in combat and their initial disaster was entirely due to not using them. The BPF did use 90G slipper tanks, and IIRC, Implacable used modded P-40 teardrop tanks and Indefatigable used 90G slipper tanks.

 

[RCAFson]

The Hurricane had 0 cards to play against a KI43. It couldn't turn nearly as well, it climbed slower, didn't dive that much better, and had about the same top speed. If a KI43 and a Hurricane saw each other from the same altitude, neither with an advantage, with equal pilots, the Hurricane was probably done. All the KI43 has to do is start climbing and turning and soon he's behind the Hurricane. Hurricane MIGHT be able to dive and run. Maybe. A P40 can always roll over and dive away(with any altitude), he's pretty fast on the level below 15,000 and I believe quite a bit tougher than a Hurricane.

A KI43 is at least a handful of not better than a Spitfire V. I'd rather fight a KI43 in a Dauntless than a Hurricane, at least I have a radial engine and a rear gunner

The same argument can be made regarding the F4F-4 and the Zero...

I took a careful look at Ki-43 vs Hurricane encounters in Burma as stated in Bloody Shambles V3. First there were very few encounters over 3 years of air combat and in nearly every encounter the winner had an altitude advantage (surprise surprise) and typically that was the Ki-43 as the Hurricane was almost always being used for low altitude strikes.

 

[RCAFson]

The Hurricane was obsolete from the beginning of their introduction in the theatre of war until the end. They were even given a hard time by the Ki27 an aircraft they should have run rings around

The Hurricane was obsolete at the start of the campaign and even more obsolete at the end. The difference in the Ki43 only magnified the problem and its worth remembering that the Hurricanes had a difficult time dealing with the Ki27

The Hurricane was completely superior to the Ki27. I don't know how people get these weird ideas into their heads but the outcome of handful of combats is hardly conclusive. No sane pilot would chose to fight in a Ki-27 against an equally trained pilot in any Mk Hurricane. Again, the Hurricane was superior to the F4F-4 and that aircraft had no problems dealing with the Ki-27/A5M.