A Critical Analysis of the RAF Air Superiority Campaign in India, Burma and Malaya in 1941-45

[parsifal]

I don't know much about the CBI TO, but as I understand it, hurricanes were not considered or configured as air superiority fighters generally. They were generally used as ground attack a/c, flying low and slow for maximum effect. If that is the case, they will generally be at a disadvantage if caught in that condition by the enemy.

 

[Stig1207]

The Sea Hurricane and Hurricane between them shot down about 6000 enemy...

That would be 6000 claimed/ credited by there own side, wouldn't it?

 

[Just Schmidt]

The Dutch tested a Hurricane in the East Indies with half the armament and fuel and it was fully capable of dog fighting the Hayabusa.

Could you expand on that, maybe posting the reports on the test and the circumstances? I'd like to know what mark of Hayabusa (and Hurricane), what condition it was in/how it was captured and what was actually tested/compared.

 

[Kevin J]

Could you expand on that, maybe posting the reports on the test and the circumstances? I'd like to know what mark of Hayabusa (and Hurricane), what condition it was in/how it was captured and what was actually tested/compared.

Hawker Hurricane - Wikipedia
Its in wikipedia, so it must be true.

 

[Kevin J]

I don't know much about the CBI TO, but as I understand it, hurricanes were not considered or configured as air superiority fighters generally. They were generally used as ground attack a/c, flying low and slow for maximum effect. If that is the case, they will generally be at a disadvantage if caught in that condition by the enemy.

I think you'll find the Hurricanes were initially configured as interceptors and for escort.

 

[Kevin J]

That would be 6000 claimed/ credited by there own side, wouldn't it?

Absolutely, is there any other way?

 

[Kevin J]

IIRC, the Malta Spitfires initially used twinned 45 gallon Hurricane drop tanks.

All Spitfire slipper tanks were drop tanks and the RAAF Capstan Spitfires did drop 30G tanks in combat and their initial disaster was entirely due to not using them. The BPF did use 90G slipper tanks, and IIRC, Implacable used modded P-40 teardrop tanks and Indefatigable used 90G slipper tanks.

The first Spitfire Vb's that went to Malta carried the 90 gal slipper (ferry) tank, the Spitfire Vc was able to carry the 170 gal (ferry) slipper tank, IIRC the BPF may have used 90 gal slipper tanks initially but switched to the Kittyhawk tanks. A Spitfire/Seafire could retain the 30 gal slipper tank in combat, the 90/170 gal slipper tanks had operating restrictions on them, like only fly straight and level so hardly any good for offensive missions and intended for ferry missions only. The 45 gal tank was okay for defensive patrols but not much else.

 

[Kevin J]

The Hurricane was obsolete from the beginning of their introduction in the theatre of war until the end. They were even given a hard time by the Ki27 an aircraft they should have run rings around

The Hurricane was obsolete at the start of the campaign and even more obsolete at the end. The difference in the Ki43 only magnified the problem and its worth remembering that the Hurricanes had a difficult time dealing with the Ki27

The Hurricane was effective against the Ki-27 if it employed boom and zoom tactics. Against the Ki-43, it had a hard time. Success depended on having an altitude advantage, the Hurricane was much faster in a dive so it could break off combat. Its tropical filter and heavy armament restricted its climb rate and agility. Both problems were solvable, an Aboukir filter and reducing the armament.

 

[Kevin J]

Clearly you are allowed your own opinion and you have a belief which you will not change despite all the evidence and the views of the pilots at the time. If you haven't already I suggest you read the Bloody Shambles series which should open your eyes a little.
You will see that when fighting the Ki27 long range tanks on the Hurricanes were very unusual, that both sides didn't much have radar (the IJAAF having none) and that didn't stop the Hurricanes taking severe losses.
I also notice that you haven't supplied any evidence to support your belief which says a lot about the strength of your case. Finally you haven't explained why a Hurricane with 6 x LMG would be so much better than a IIa with eight the difference in weight being almost negligable

I think you need to do a bit more reading.

 

[Stig1207]

Absolutely, is there any other way?

Probably not, but it does mean that how many enemy aircraft were shot down by Hurricanes is unknown; it's also likely to be a much lower number.

 

[parsifal]

I think you'll find the Hurricanes were initially configured as interceptors and for escort.

who, in what TO were doing well against the Japanese in the early part of 1942?

I managed to get myself embroiled in a discussion about p-39 performance. it was the wrong thread, but we ended talking about P-39 performance over PNG. Two US Fighter Groups managed to shoot down 7 A6Ms over a period of about 3 months......April to end of June. to all causes these groups lost nearly 60 aircraft achieving that result.

Im not convinced the hurricane was that bad really

 

[Kevin J]

Probably not, but it does mean that how many enemy aircraft were shot down by Hurricanes is unknown; it's also likely to be a much lower number.

5871 claims for the ETO, 128 confirmed kills by the FAA. Then there's the MTO, the Eastern Front and SE Asia. Divide by 2 and add 50%?

 

[Stig1207]

Or just divide by 3 or 4; who knows?

 

[Kevin J]

Or just divide by 3 or 4; who knows?

I think divide by 2 is the norm, but the figures are just for the ETO, so double for all the remaining theatres of ops after dividing by two. Anyway, if you divide the Hurricane victories by two then that make Spitfire victories in the ETO about 1750, so much for our wonder plane.

 

[Stig1207]

RAF fighter claims and losses seem to be some the hardest to find on the web, so I wouldn't know how the Spitfire compares to the Hurricane in that regard. However, 5871 claims in the ETO seems rather a how number, seeing as the Hurricane peaked in air combat in the BoB.

 

[pinsog]

RCAFson
The F4F-4 had 1 card to play against the Zero, dive to above 300 mph, roll to the right and pull out. We all know the Zero's high speed roll problem, the KI43 did not have the high speed roll problem. I think we are lucky they didn't use the KI43 instead of the Zero, I have come to believe it is the better plane.
I agree the Hurricane was better than an F4F-4 in mock dogfights. In real life vs a Zero the F4F-4 had a couple of advantages: radial engine, I think it had more/better armor, it did not have a fuel tank in front of the pilot that when punctured soaked the pilot in fuel and lit him on fire.
You may not think a Ki27 is a threat, but your forgetting just how well they turn, they probably rivaled a Gladiator. Wildcats had trouble dealing with Japanese biplane float planes due to their extreme agility.

Also remember the Australian test between a Spitfire V and a Zero "The Spitfire has no advantages below 20,000 feet". That quote is from the 2 guys that did the tests

 

[Schweik]

The 9th Photo Recon tried to convert one of their F-4's into an interceptor to deal with the Dinahs. They mounted two .50 cal machine guns in the F-4 (which was their hangar queen) but failed to intercept the Dinah due to lack of radar warning. Finally the USAAF stripped down a P-40 and got the Dinah.

An interesting item is that the RAF went over to VHF communications and when the USAAF Air Commandos went into action in 1944, the RAF said that they did not need for their pilots to talk to the ground forces in Burma. The ground forces did not have VHF, only HF communications. The P-51A's of the Air Commandos came equipped with SCR-274N HF radios, and they talked to the ground troops.

I read a long interview with Bobby Gibbes in which he explained the issue with HF - he said HF radios had to be constantly tuned in as the plane was flying around. Said they believed pilots died while fiddling with the radio dials trying to tune in their squadron mates who were yelling at them to 'Break!'

He said VF radios (not sure if he meant VHF but he said VF) were more like modern radios where you just hit a button and it switched channels and stayed tuned-in.

He also mentioned that he was really surprised at the lack of radio discipline when he got to the Pacific. He said in North Africa they had to use radio reciever clicks with special code because if they started talking on the Radio the Germans would quickly figure it out and be on their asses. When he got to the Pacific and went on his first raid in the Solomons he was amazed to hear everyone chattering away like they were in a pub.

S

 

[Schweik]

RCAFson
The F4F-4 had 1 card to play against the Zero, dive to above 300 mph, roll to the right and pull out. We all know the Zero's high speed roll problem, the KI43 did not have the high speed roll problem. I think we are lucky they didn't use the KI43 instead of the Zero, I have come to believe it is the better plane.

In some respects I think you might be right. Maybe a better fighter killer anyway. Against fighters the relatively 'light' armament isn't really as much of a problem but it does make it harder to knock down medium or heavy bombers.

I agree the Hurricane was better than an F4F-4 in mock dogfights. In real life vs a Zero the F4F-4 had a couple of advantages: radial engine, I think it had more/better armor, it did not have a fuel tank in front of the pilot that when punctured soaked the pilot in fuel and lit him on fire.
You may not think a Ki27 is a threat, but your forgetting just how well they turn, they probably rivaled a Gladiator. Wildcats had trouble dealing with Japanese biplane float planes due to their extreme agility.

Also remember the Australian test between a Spitfire V and a Zero "The Spitfire has no advantages below 20,000 feet". That quote is from the 2 guys that did the tests

The advantage the F4F had was it could dive away from a Zero or a Ki-27 - the Ki-43 may not have had as much problem with high speed roll / torque issues but it did have a limit on dive speed, much lower than that of the F4F. The Hurricane could probably dive away from a K-27 but not from an A6M or Ki-43 - at least, the dive speed wasn't enough higher, apparently, plus the Hurricane had relatively poor roll rate.

The ability to disengage in some kind of way when the fight wasn't going well I think turned out to be one of the key features for success in WW2 fighters.

S

 

[Schweik]

Glider is correct. The later model KI43 had a top speed of around 350, pilot armor and self sealing tanks. The KI43 also did not have the loss of roll at high speed that the Zero suffered from and as I understand could outturn a Zero at low speed as well. There is actually nothing I can think of that a Hurricane can do to evade a KI43 unless they are at altitude and the Hurricane can dive away. (And the Hurricane was never known to be a particularly good diver either)

I got the impression after reading Bloody Shambles volume 3 that the KI43 with armor and tank protection could hold its own with about anything. Hurricanes seemed to be meat on the table, Spitfires faired a little better. P40's could dive and take a pretty good beating and still survive. I was very surprised at how the "slow, underarmed KI43" shot down P47's, P38's, photo recon Spitfire's, photo recon Mosquitoes, F5 recon Lightning's, B24's etc. In fact, I think they were doing better at it than the Luftwaffe.

Agree with this but it's worth noting though that the US P-40 units in the CBI, 23rd FG, 51st, 80th etc., all did quite well against Ki-43. The ability to dive away to disengage, and later on to disengage in level flight, combined with good tactics and the fact that so much of the fighting in the CBI was at low or medium altitude, meant that the P-40 pilots in that Theater had a winning formula against the Ki-27, Ki-43, the A6M, and even (also) against several of the later war fighters like the Ki-44 and Ki-61. According to an old thread on here even the Ki-84.

I do think Ki-43 tends to get very underestimated though, it was a lethal plane.

S

 

[Just Schmidt]

Hawker Hurricane - Wikipedia
Its in wikipedia, so it must be true.

Thank you for that, it lead me to a reference to Boer 2006 "The loss of Jawa" which I can't consult. However the relevant passage on wiki seem to be: "That same month, 12 Hurricane Mk IIB Trops were supplied to the Dutch forces on Java. With dust filters removed and fuel and ammo load in wings halved, these were able to stay in a turn with the Oscars they fought." True or not, this alone hardly warrants your claim that a so modified hurricane was "fully capable of dog fighting the Hayabusa".