GregP
Major
That's your opinion and it's starting to get entertaining.
I am somewhat of a bull sh___tter myself but, occasionally, I like to listen to a professional.
Please carry on.
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That's your opinion and it's starting to get entertaining.Your posts are getting more and more ridiculous. It is clear you have no idea what you're talking about.
There seems to be two possible scenarios happening here:
1. You can't handle the fact that some pilots had lots of overclaims, because it ruins the idea you have about a pilot's victory tally.
2. You are deliberately being dense because it's a fun way of trolling.
My side has facts and proof
Your side is literally just nonsensical hypothetical arguments, your opinions and no facts at all.
And as one myself, I endorse this message.That's your opinion and it's starting to get entertaining.
I am somewhat of a bull sh___tter myself but, occasionally, I like to listen to a professional.
Please carry on.
But that's the best part!... This will just continue to go round and round, and eventually fall into fighting and name calling again.
Worst I'll call him is a forum member.
And, if we disagree, which we do, that seems to be the nature of discussion between people with opposing views. The real issue is near 80 years in the past anyway, how important can it be?
Cheers.
Sigh…
A few more posts removed.
I literally just asked both sides to chill. Its not hard. If I can do it, you all can.
One more insult, jab, personal attack, childish comment, or snide comment and there won't be any posting by that person in this thread going forward.
I had to respond to that final post by Greg because it was so funny.
Since I wasn't sure if Greg's post was going to be removed, I responded myself.
But since you removed his post, I agree with you removing my post.
Come on everyone, lets keep it cool.
My recommendation, everyone just simply move on. Its clear that neither side will budge. This will just continue to go round and round, and eventually fall into fighting and name calling again.
Which books are them? Is any published already? I think is a subject that nowadays is kind of neglected, like heavy air fight in the ETO in 1940 and them nothing till the 8 AF arrived in mid 1942 and the just bombing Germany from 1943.I Wonder how many Flak will i get when i'll finish my books about the RaF channel operations 41->43, cause the english overclaim was like a daily sickness in this period, going from 50% overclaim until 300%...
I Wonder how many Flak will i get when i'll finish my books about the RaF channel operations 41->43, cause the english overclaim was like a daily sickness in this period, going from 50% overclaim until 300%...
HiWhich books are them? Is any published already? I think is a subject that nowadays is kind of neglected, like heavy air fight in the ETO in 1940 and them nothing till the 8 AF arrived in mid 1942 and the just bombing Germany from 1943.
Mike, a good post but You miss the Group number in the title of Michael J F Bowyer's book '2 Group R.A.F., A Complete History, 1936-1945'Hi
I presume it may be referring to 'The RAF's Cross-Channel Offensive' by John Starkey (I can't comment on it as I have not read it yet).
There is also John Foreman's books (five volumes) 'Fighter Command War Diaries', Volume 2 and 3, that deal with this period, with claims losses and more. Norman L R Franks has also written a three volume work on 'Royal Air Force Fighter Command Losses of the Second World War'' Volume 1 and 2 cover the period. The same author also wrote 'The Greatest Air Battle, Dieppe, 19th August 1942', Chapter 14 'Summing Up' deals with claims/over claims and losses. The RAF losses at least are quite transparent.
Another book that may be of interest for the cross-channel operations is 'Group RAF, A Complete History, 1936-1945' by Michael J F Bowyer. This Group supplied many of the light bombers involved in Circus operations during the period concerned. I am sure there may be other books that deal with these operations.
I hope that is of use.
Mike
Yes and no.This is just something that could not be accounted for in the chaos of the retreat of the summer of 1941. Higher commanders had no communication with the units, so they had no information about the causes of losses or their number. But the total loss had to be labeled somehow.....
Hi Mike.Hi
I presume it may be referring to 'The RAF's Cross-Channel Offensive' by John Starkey (I can't comment on it as I have not read it yet).
There is also John Foreman's books (five volumes) 'Fighter Command War Diaries', Volume 2 and 3, that deal with this period, with claims losses and more. Norman L R Franks has also written a three volume work on 'Royal Air Force Fighter Command Losses of the Second World War'' Volume 1 and 2 cover the period. The same author also wrote 'The Greatest Air Battle, Dieppe, 19th August 1942', Chapter 14 'Summing Up' deals with claims/over claims and losses. The RAF losses at least are quite transparent.
Another book that may be of interest for the cross-channel operations is 'Group RAF, A Complete History, 1936-1945' by Michael J F Bowyer. This Group supplied many of the light bombers involved in Circus operations during the period concerned. I am sure there may be other books that deal with these operations.
I hope that is of use.
Mike
Your logic is perfect - for the system based on the logic. For VVS and the Soviet military in general your logic can be applied to some periods but not to others.But still, if one didn't report the losses, he could not ask for replacements. If your unit is understreght because of that, at some point one was not able to carry out the missions one was ordered to and you'll be exposed at the latest, probably earlier because the lack of planes would have been easily noticed. A lot of combat losses could not be attributed to technical faults, because then the TO of the unit would have been suddenly brought in for questioning and would hardly have accepted the charge of sabotage to save the unit's commander's ass. The sentence for sabotage was easily death.
HiMike, a good post but You miss the Group number in the title of Michael J F Bowyer's book '2 Group R.A.F., A Complete History, 1936-1945'
HiHi Mike.
Due to the wording I was asuming that B bada was writing some books about that but I could have misunderstood him.
I have John Starkey's book, but with some 237 pages of text including two chapters from 1914 till 1939, one for 1944&1945 and two examinations, is more an overview than a detailed account.
John Foreman's books look great but priced in the second hand market.
Norman Franks FC loses I thought it is just a list of airframes lost, isn't?
The Greatest Air Battle is good albeit just for one day and somewhat one sided (IMO) in the sense that the view from the german side is lacking, probably due to the date when it was written.
Michael J F Bowyer book is great for the 2nd Group, albeit my edition is 50 y.o.
Many thanks for the hints.
Luis
Hi
I presume it may be referring to 'The RAF's Cross-Channel Offensive' by John Starkey (I can't comment on it as I have not read it yet).
There is also John Foreman's books (five volumes) 'Fighter Command War Diaries', Volume 2 and 3, that deal with this period, with claims losses and more. Norman L R Franks has also written a three volume work on 'Royal Air Force Fighter Command Losses of the Second World War'' Volume 1 and 2 cover the period. The same author also wrote 'The Greatest Air Battle, Dieppe, 19th August 1942', Chapter 14 'Summing Up' deals with claims/over claims and losses. The RAF losses at least are quite transparent.
Another book that may be of interest for the cross-channel operations is 'Group RAF, A Complete History, 1936-1945' by Michael J F Bowyer. This Group supplied many of the light bombers involved in Circus operations during the period concerned. I am sure there may be other books that deal with these operations.
I hope that is of use.
Mike