A look at German fighter Ace kill claims

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Your remark that the Luftwaffe used a points system, even on the eastern front tells me a bit.

A points system WAS used, but generally ONLY on the western front. If it was used at all, it was used solely for awarding decorations for aerial combat accomplishments, such as Iron cross, Honor cup, German cross, Knight's cross. It was never used for tracking aerial victories. The system for awarding actual aerial victories was stringent, but there were exceptions, as with most any system, that got through.

This became more apparent when the German archives were made public in the 1990s. Reviews showed German claims were around 90% accurate when compared with Allied records. This compares VERY favorably when compared with almost any other air force that participated in WWII.

I don't have much to ask, but thanks for the offer. Perhaps in the future.

Cheers.
 
GregP said:
Your remark that the Luftwaffe used a points system, even on the eastern front tells me a bit.
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Hopefully it does because it was present. JG 51, JG 52 etc... even in late March 1945. They were titled "abschüssen gleichzusetzen". It converted the type of claim into a point/s. The Luftwaffe did use the points system on the Eastern Front.
GregP said:
but generally ONLY on the western front.
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Simply not true. Ample evidence it was used on the Eastern front as well.
GregP said:
It was never used for tracking aerial victories.
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That is again incorrect. Claims and points had a 1:1 relationship because one is derived from the other and vice-versa. The number of claims can directly be extracted from the points breakdown of a pilot... and period documents do exactly that.
GregP said:
The system for awarding actual aerial victories was stringent
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Verified Victories, Chapter 1, will provide about 10 pages and 97 footnotes on how messy the situation was. This messy situation was acknowledged even by high ranking RLM/OKL staff post war.
Take Erich Hartmann's 301 in August. Approved by his unit while he was still flying (ie. no paperwork filled out yet!), he gets his award, pictures/leave/etc, and the OKL only give their final approval way after in October/November 3 months after the fact once all the propaganda had been created. It was increasingly a mess from 1943 on wards.
 
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Been looking at this for more than 50 years, including talking with WWII pilots about it ... including German veterans, and you are the first person to suggest the Germans used a point system for aerial victories.

I'll pass on commenting and watch from the sidelines as an interested observer.

Methinks it is YOU who are incorrect.

In the end, it doesn't matter much to me. I have loads of references that never once mention the points system for anything except decorations.

But, don't let that get in the way of promotion. Go for it.

Cheers.
 
First
GregP said:
Of course, I don't HAVE and do not see how I can GET German primary sources.
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then
GregP said:
Been looking at this for more than 50 years
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... anyway. BAMA, NARA, TNA, TsAMO. Online, free, been that way for a decade and only getting better.
GregP said:
you are the first person to suggest the Germans used a point system for aerial victories.
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I believe you fail to understand me. It was used since at least 1943 to translate an action into a standardized metric for awards. Nothing special about it. I am about the 10,000th person who has made mention of the points systems used for aerial victories. It was also used for operational flights, special mission types, etc. Its purpose was literally to track the aerial claims, define them by a standardized metric, and then after accumulating X number of points to be "cashed out" as an award. Nothing about the above deviates from the past 80 years of research. Careful re-reading of my post #22 clearly states this. From these lists you can count the number of claims a pilot made. If the points system is not tracking aerial claims (or special flights, etc), what would you think (or 'methinks') it tracks exactly?

The system tracks actions (input), then it accumulates these to result in an equivalent for an award (output).

One is welcome to "methinks" all they wish, meanwhile aviation research based on archival documents steadily continues to get better and better. It has never been this accessible either which is an excellent thing!
 
For those of you who are interested in real-world data, attached is a list of the kills for the top Aces, who are all German.

Notice in particular the top 3. Note their victory lists are not composed of points; they are composed of aircraft that were shot down. So, Erich Hartmann had 352 victims, not 352 points awarded.

His points accumulated with the point system then in use, were used to award his uniform decorations, like they were for the other pilots. Hartmann had the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross with Oak Leaves and, later, diamonds ... 1 of only 27 to receive the diamonds.

Cheers.
 

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An impressive compilation from various sources! For Hartmann these appear to come from a defunct Czech website, Tony Woods listings based on the OKL microfilms, Bernd Barbas's historiography (he helped with the book as well) and data complied by Micheal Balss in his database (which is derived from sources already mentioned), possibly also from my good collaegue Johannes Mathews (Luftwaffe Aces series) who selflessly assisted in Verified Victories and was a great proponent of the book, perhaps a few more.
GregP said:
Note their victory lists are not composed of points; they are composed of aircraft that were shot down
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Pilots made claims, at the same time they were also awarded points based on the system of the time. Perhaps you once again misinterpreted me. Then what did we write 215 pages on, cross checking an arbitrary point with a detailed Soviet loss? Then again those who have the book clearly understand this is not the case.
So maybe a third time is a charm, now with posts #22 and #24. I'll leave the points topic at that as there is little sense in reiterating something that apparently cannot/does not want to be understood. If one wants more on points, the answers lie in some pilot logbooks and at BAMA (I would suggest RL 19-11/154 as a start on the claiming systems).
GregP said:
they are composed of aircraft that were shot down.
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*Claimed* It is necessary to make this distinction. Claim≠ Victory. What is a victory? -> Chapter 1 of the book in 10 pages.

Based on archival/documented sources for late 1944-capitulation (unit association as written in documents, many late claim victim models derived from letters sent back home apparently. TsAMO docs are German docuemtns captured by Soviets now held at TsAMO). Some *real-world* data below/attacehd.
1944.11.22Hptm. Erich Hartmann7./JG52Yak-9
98453​
at 3.500 m.
11:40​
BAMAAbschusse Microfilm317
1944.11.22Hptm. Erich Hartmann7./JG52La-5
98452​
at 4.500 m.
11:45​
BAMAAbschusse Microfilm318
1944.12.05Hptm. Erich Hartmann7./JG52LaGG-5
98419​
at 1.200 m.
13:20​
BAMAAbschusse Microfilm319
1944.12.05Hptm. Erich Hartmann7./JG52LaGG-5
98278​
at 1.000 m.
13:25​
BAMAAbschusse Microfilm320
1944.12.09Hptm. Erich Hartmann7./JG52Yak-9
88683​
at 2.000 m.
13:10​
BAMAAbschusse Microfilm321
1944.12.09Hptm. Erich Hartmann7./JG52Yak-9
88694​
at 2.000 m.
13:20​
BAMAAbschusse Microfilm322
1944.12.10-22Hptm. Erich Hartmann-----??323
1944.12.10-22Hptm. Erich Hartmann-----??324
1944.12.10-22Hptm. Erich Hartmann-----??325
1944.12.10-22Hptm. Erich Hartmann-----??326
1944.12.10-22Hptm. Erich Hartmann-----??327
1944.12.23Hptm. Erich Hartmann-----TsAMOVOL report328
1944.12.24Hptm. Erich Hartmann-----TsAMOVOL report329
1944.12.24Hptm. Erich Hartmann-----TsAMOVOL report330
1944.12.24Hptm. Erich Hartmann-----TsAMOVOL report331
1944.12.25Hptm. Erich Hartmann-----TsAMOVOL report332
1944.12.25Hptm. Erich Hartmann-----TsAMOVOL report333
1944.12.25Hptm. Erich Hartmann-----TsAMOVOL report334
1944.12.25Hptm. Erich Hartmann-----TsAMOVOL report335
1944.12.25Hptm. Erich Hartmann-----TsAMOVOL report336
1945.02.04Hptm. Erich HartmannI./JG 53YakSárkeresztes-Mór areaat 3.000 m~14:00TNA/BookJG 53 Vol.3, Verified Victories; Pictures337
1945.02.05-03.05Hptm. Erich Hartmann-----??338
1945.02.05-03.05Hptm. Erich Hartmann-----??339
1945.03.06Hptm. Erich HartmannIII./JG52Yak-9
71193​
--NARALft.Kdo 6 KTB340
1945.03.06Hptm. Erich HartmannIII./JG52Yak-9
71194​
--NARALft.Kdo 6 KTB341
1945.03.07Hptm. Erich HartmannI./JG52Yak-9
71414​
--NARALft.Kdo 6 KTB342
1945.03.07Hptm. Erich HartmannI./JG52Yak-9
71473​
--NARALft.Kdo 6 KTB343
1945.03.8-15Hptm. Erich HartmannI./JG52----??344
1945.03.8-15Hptm. Erich HartmannI./JG52----??345
1945.03.8-15Hptm. Erich HartmannI./JG52----??346
1945.03.16Hptm. Erich HartmannI./JG52----NARALft.Kdo 6 KTB347
1945.04.10Hptm. Erich HartmannI./JG52----NARALft.Kdo 6 KTB348
1945.04.11-16Hptm. Erich HartmannI./JG52----??349
1945.04.17Hptm. Erich HartmannI./JG52----NARAErfahrungsbericht JG 52; Picture350
1945.04.18-05.07Hptm. Erich HartmannI./JG52----??351
1945.05.08Hptm. Erich HartmannI./JG52YakBrno Areaat 4.000 m~9:00BookBlond Knight of Germany; Graf&Grislawski352
 

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In your opinion, and you are welcome to it. I wasn't there and can't say for sure.

But, the evidence survived for the victory board discussion. Most pilots, including the Germans, didn't put in for a victory unless they saw the plane explode or otherwise go down, the enemy pilot bail out, or the plane going down into cloud while substantially on fire and seemingly out of control.

Then again, as I said, I wasn't there.

Cheers.
 
CHen10 said:
A lot of those victims never actually crashed. They suffered minimal or no damage at all and returned to base.
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Exactly. Even by OKL standards these are not victories, but rules were relaxed and claim information could not be followed up on... or propaganda was already created (see previous note on his 301 record) that no person wishing to remain alive would go against.
GregP said:
In your opinion
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It is literally evidenced by stacks of archival documents enough to fill a room. This is not opinion, rather fact.
The bar to enter is thankfully low, needing only an internet connection: BAMA,NARA, TNA, TsAMO.
 
CHen10 said:
Exactly. We can say with certainty that Hartmann did NOT destroy 352 planes. He damaged a lot of planes but they never crashed and sometimes he thought he hit them but he didn't.
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Fully agree. I believe he had 352 claims, I can also believe he had more claims (ex Johannes Mathews found 2 more unconfirmed even by the OKL (from his first logbook?). But 352 victories? No, not even close.
 
Damaged a lot of planes - yes.

Never crashed? You have to be joking.

Thought he hit them but didn't? Every pilot in combat has those, but if they didn't get hit, they didn't crash or appear to be crashing, and those are the ones you don't claim.
 
GregP said:
Damaged a lot of planes - yes.

Never crashed? You have to be joking.

Thought he hit them but didn't? Every pilot in combat has those, but if they didn't get hit, they didn't crash or appear to be crashing, and those are the ones you don't claim.
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The thing is, Hartmann did claim the ones that never crashed. That's why he has overclaims. Of his 352 victories, a lot never crashed.
 
I suppose you were there to witness that statement.

His wingmen said otherwise, and they WERE there and WERE witnesses.

Your statement smacks of being your opinion. That's fine. Everyone has one.

My opinion is that I won't arbitrarily decide to change a pilot's score that was awarded in a war without significant evidence to back up the change, and I am not interested in going after one or even a few people in that regard. I we are going to change the historic scores, let's look at the entire set of scores. Unfortunately, most of what would have been eyewitness accounts have been lost if they have not already been written down, because the pilot's involved have passed away.

The accounts that HAVE been written down about Hartmann that I have seen don't support your statement. So, and I am not speaking for others here, I'll stick with his score as it was awarded during the conflict.

At least, that seems reasonable to me.

Arguments with words like "never crashed" seem ill-considered. Hartmann was credited with 352 victories. To say "never crashed" is a rather obvious attempt to stir the pot of discord. Let's just say it didn't work. If you're going to make that case, what is your evidence, specifically, by date and reference?

I posted an Excel file above with the dates of his victories. Which ones are you disputing and what is your specific evidence for the disagreement with the victories you take issue with?

Curious to read about it.

Cheers.
 
I don't know why you think saying "never crashed" is stirring the pot of discord. There's nothing insulting about that phrase.

Here's the evidence that Hartmann had overclaims and that his victims didn't always crash. You can look at the tables and see that the losses don't match his claims:

 
Primary source, CHen10. And I can write that stuff, too, and have.

The main thing you say above is that losses do not match claims. Ya' think?

That's true and there are very many scenarios when someone who gets shot down will not show up as a loss.

The very idea that losses will match claims is incorrect from the outset. I've covered that many times in here, so I won't both to cover it again.

If that's the best you have, you don't have much. Seeing some of it makes me want to see more, but Soviet admitted losses will NEVER match claims. That does not invalidate the claims. What invalidates the claims is if the airplanes claimed as shot down didn't, in fact, go down. Whether or not it was repaired later is inconsequential.

Somehow, I knew the pic of the book was coming. I wonder how I knew that?

Cheers.
 
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Are your eyes unable to see the dozens of footnotes?
No primary sources, lol. According to yourself you can't seem to find the German sources, let alone Soviet ones. I suppose this is true as when presented with a page directly citing dozens of primary sources this still slips under the radar.
Anyway, an old Western saying about bringing a horse to water comes to mind…
Your displayed knowledge on Soviet aircraft loss reporting is not surprising given what has been written.
I don't mean the above to chastise, only to square the situation.
If one wishes to read about the Luftwaffe claiming system, Verified Victories provides the probably the most up-to-date and expansive reading in a single book in the English language written to date. If one is serious in wanting to know, they will at least make an attempt at understanding.
 
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GregP said:
Primary source, CHen10. And I can write that stuff, too, and have.
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These are primary sources, they are from TsAMO RF


GregP said:
but Soviet admitted losses will NEVER match claims.
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GregP said:
The very idea that losses will match claims is incorrect from the outset. I've covered that many times in here, so I won't both to cover it again.
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This is completely wrong. Helmut Lipfert for example, was really accurate and his claims match Soviet losses most of the time. So yes, Soviet losses do match claims since they match with Lipfert, Barkhorn, Fönnekold, Wolfrum etc. They also sometimes match with Hartmann too.

I could show you proof that Lipfert's claims match Soviet losses but I don't know if it's fair to keep showing pictures from Verified Victories since you haven't bought it.

I'll ask Luft.4 since he's the author

L Luft.4 Do you mind if I show a few more excerpts from Verified Victories?
 
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