A more effective Dec 1941 preemptive attack on the USA

[SaparotRob]

And Britain (and Empire), France and the Dutch have a lot more territory than Malaya, DEI and Burma for Japan to take. For starters, the Solomons and PNG. See maps below.

The British Empire in the Pacific and Australasia

The British Empire in the Pacific and Australasia

www.britishempire.co.uk

The British Empire in the Pacific and Australasia

The British Empire in the Pacific and Australasia

www.britishempire.co.uk

Would the US sit idly by as Japan took possession of British and French territory as far east as Clipperton Island?

Probably. One foreign empire or another, not our problem. Was there an anti-British sentiment in the States? There was a vocal pro-German segment.

 

[The Basket]

Au Contraire Amigo.

Maybe Joe Q Public in *insert state here* wanted nothing to do with nothing.

But what about Alaska? Hawaii? Midway? Philippines? Wake? Guam?

America had plenty of skin in this game. Isolation was not an option.

War with Japan was more obvious than the public realize and been caught off guard is no excuse.

America was playing the game of thrones musical chairs and got caught out when the music stopped.

 

[SaparotRob]

That's my story, and no matter how short sighted, I'm sticking with it.

 

[GrauGeist]

Au Contraire Amigo.

Maybe Joe Q Public in *insert state here* wanted nothing to do with nothing.

But what about Alaska? Hawaii? Midway? Philippines? Wake? Guam?

America had plenty of skin in this game. Isolation was not an option.

War with Japan was more obvious than the public realize and been caught off guard is no excuse.

America was playing the game of thrones musical chairs and got caught out when the music stopped.

Not close, by a long shot.

Americans (Hawaii, Alaska, Rhode Island ir otherwise) were not interested in a war.
They were kept updated on the war in Europe and Asia and felt bad for the situation, but those conflicts were half a world away and had nothing to do with their day to day struggle with the aftermath of the Great Depression.

Americans had no interest in being involved with a war that had nothing to do with the U.S. - even after American ships were sunk off their coast by U-Boats, they waved it off.

Once the news of Pearl Harbor hit the public, that changed instantly.

 

[EwenS]

Not close, by a long shot.

Americans (Hawaii, Alaska, Rhode Island ir otherwise) were not interested in a war.
They were kept updated on the war in Europe and Asia and felt bad for the situation, but those conflicts were half a world away and had nothing to do with their day to day struggle with the aftermath of the Great Depression.

Americans had no interest in being involved with a war that had nothing to do with the U.S. - even after American ships were sunk off their coast by U-Boats, they waved it off.

Once the news of Pearl Harbor hit the public, that changed instantly.

No ships were sunk "off their coast" before the Germans triggered Operation Drumbeat in Dec 1941 and the sin kings began in Jan 1942.

Prior to Pearl Harbor only 4 US merchantmen were sunk by U-boats, the last two in the first week of Dec 1941. 3 were in South Atlantic / African waters. The fourth, the tanker Sagadahoc, was in mid-Atlantic, south of the Azores. All were sailing independently.

On 9 Aug 1941 at the Argentia Bay Conference with Churchill, FDR agreed that the USN would escort convoys from Canada to a point south of Iceland. The first of these left Canadian waters in mid-Sept. In Oct, there were 3 incidents when USN ships were torpedoed in mid-Atlantic, culminating in the sinking of the old 4 pipe destroyer Reuben James on 31 Oct.

So all far enough away to be out of sight and out of mind. It was a different matter completely after PH, when US public opinion had already changed, and when Operation Drumbeat began with wreckage and bodies beginning to wash up on US beaches and tankers could be seen burning on the offshore horizon.

Ships hit by U-boats during WWII - Search - uboat.net

The U-boat War in World War Two (Kriegsmarine, 1939-1945) and World War One (Kaiserliche Marine, 1914-1918) and the Allied efforts to counter the threat. This section includes over 21.000 Allied Warships and over 11.000 Allied Commanders of WWII, from the US Navy, Royal Navy, Royal Canadian...

uboat.net

Selecting country as America from the page will give a list of US ships lost/damaged in U-boat attacks

 

[The Basket]

The point I made is this.

America in the public mind is east to west coast USA and yes that could be isolated from the wider world.

But......The conquests from Spain and Alaska meant that American colonies and territory were right in the firing line. So America was now part of the wider world and politically and military as much in the thick of it as Britain, France and Netherlands.

It was Japan who decided that USA will have war. Not Joe Q Public. Isolation don't work so well when you are losing overseas territories and Americans are dying.

Had America had no overseas territories then war with Japan could have been avoided but it wasn't, it couldn't. The conquest of the Philippines was enough to say war with Japan was inevitable.

You cannot have isolation policies and conquer islands from Spain policies at the same time.

That's very confusing.

 

[The Basket]

My genius has uncovered a new truth.

Japan decided the field of battle, start time and tactics and USA did not.

If you want to know how USA could have done better is by Pearl Habouring Japan before Japan Pearl Habours you.

If war is inevitable with Japan then act like it.

Strike first.

 

[special ed]

Since I was born in 1940, I have little personal memory of the war years other than most men wore uniforms or were older than my father. My father was a fingerprint expert with the Justice Dept and was exempted from military service which was good for me and my younger sisters as he was rejected from joining USAAC in 1938 because of a stiff joint in his little finger left hand. My knowledge of the home front attitudes came from listening to friends' fathers stories beginning about 1949 on. Most young men, before US war entry, after high school graduation looked for work in the defense industry. In my adult years I knew several people whose fathers went to California because the aircraft plants had contracts and were expanding. One guys' dad began at Consolidated after graduation, was exempted during first draft call because of vital war work, at second callup he had married a co-worker, at the third had a child, and by war's end another. Many young men in the US were aviation oriented, were model builders and read the model magazines, and realised we would eventually be in it. I had an Air Force instructor who on his 18th birthday in 1940 left for Canada to join the RCAF because, as many did, thought the European war would be a short one and he would miss it. He flew in an RCAF sq of RAF until 1944 when USAAF pressured his command to force his move from RAF service to US service.

 

[The Basket]

One aspect is 1853 when a Yankee Admiral went into Edo Bay and did the business all over Japanese culture and Japanese history.

So maybe just maybe Pearl Harbour was a case of the student learning from the master. Payback.

 

[33k in the air]

Not close, by a long shot.

Americans (Hawaii, Alaska, Rhode Island ir otherwise) were not interested in a war.
They were kept updated on the war in Europe and Asia and felt bad for the situation, but those conflicts were half a world away and had nothing to do with their day to day struggle with the aftermath of the Great Depression.

Americans had no interest in being involved with a war that had nothing to do with the U.S. - even after American ships were sunk off their coast by U-Boats, they waved it off.

Once the news of Pearl Harbor hit the public, that changed instantly.

Gallup polling data from the period paints a somewhat different picture.

A poll conducted April 27-May 5, 1941, asked, "Do you think the United States will go into the war in Europe sometime before it is over, or do you think we will stay out of the war?". 64% replied it will go in while 14% answered it will stay out. Interestingly, 13% responded that it was already in.

A poll conducted Oct. 9-14, 1941, asked the question, "Which of these two things do you think is the more important — that this country keep out of war, or that Germany be defeated?". 32% of respondents replied keeping out of the war was more important while 68% said defeating Germany was more important.

In terms of Japan, a poll conducted Oct. 24-29, 1941, found that 64% of respondents answered yes to the question, "Should the United States take steps now to prevent Japan from becoming more powerful, even if this means risking a war with Japan?".

A poll conducted Nov, 27-Dec. 1, 1941, asked, "Do you think the United States will go to war against Japan sometime in the near future?". 52% of respondents replied yes while 27% replied no.

While the U.S public on the whole did not want to directly go to war, it's clear there was an understanding that going to war was likely inevitable, both in Europe and the Pacific, and much of that public was supportive of measures that would increase the country's war readiness, as well as supportive of taking actions that could easily lead to war, such as shooting at on sight German warships and submarines (62% of respondents replied approve when asked the question "In general, do you approve or disapprove of having the United States navy shoot at German submarines or warships on sight?" when polled Sept. 19-24, 1941).

 

[special ed]

I have said similar. The US sailed in and found people in bathrobes using swords and told them how the modern world was using guns to kill each other. The race was on.

 

[SaparotRob]

Gallup polling data from the period paints a somewhat different picture.

A poll conducted April 27-May 5, 1941, asked, "Do you think the United States will go into the war in Europe sometime before it is over, or do you think we will stay out of the war?". 64% replied it will go in while 14% answered it will stay out. Interestingly, 13% responded that it was already in.

A poll conducted Oct. 9-14, 1941, asked the question, "Which of these two things do you think is the more important — that this country keep out of war, or that Germany be defeated?". 32% of respondents replied keeping out of the war was more important while 68% said defeating Germany was more important.

In terms of Japan, a poll conducted Oct. 24-29, 1941, found that 64% of respondents answered yes to the question, "Should the United States take steps now to prevent Japan from becoming more powerful, even if this means risking a war with Japan?".

A poll conducted Nov, 27-Dec. 1, 1941, asked, "Do you think the United States will go to war against Japan sometime in the near future?". 52% of respondents replied yes while 27% replied no.

While the U.S public on the whole did not want to directly go to war, it's clear there was an understanding that going to war was likely inevitable, both in Europe and the Pacific, and much of that public was supportive of measures that would increase the country's war readiness, as well as supportive of taking actions that could easily lead to war, such as shooting at on sight German warships and submarines (62% of respondents replied approve when asked the question "In general, do you approve or disapprove of having the United States navy shoot at German submarines or warships on sight?" when polled Sept. 19-24, 1941).

Well I'll be. Never knew that.

 

[33k in the air]

Well I'll be. Never knew that.

You can read the Gallup polls published in 1941 here. Note that the results are in pure text form, so it's not the most pleasant thing to look at. But the information itself is of importance.

 

[The Basket]

The pacific fleet was based on the west coast and not Hawaii.

So moving the fleet to Hawaii was deliberately sending a message to Tokyo.

So maybe don't do that?

World is at war and America is lazing on a Sunday morning like Lionel Richie?

¡Ay Caramba!

 

[Admiral Beez]

If you want to know how USA could have done better is by Pearl Habouring Japan before Japan Pearl Habours you. If war is inevitable with Japan then act like it. Strike first.

It is something the democracies of the era seemed unable to do. 1936, Hitler remilitarized the Rhineland, in clear contravention of the Treaty of Versailles. Britain, France (and the US) stood by and did nothing, when THIS was the time to strike! Hitler would have been deposed within moments.

Same goes for Italy. Oct 1935, Ethiopia asks League of Nations to act against Italy. But Britain and France (US was not a member) fail to do anything.

I can't envision any circumstances where the US would start a war with Japan.

 

[MiTasol]

Timing is everything.
The Enterprise was less than two hundred miles from Pearl that morning and was on alert as she approached.

As for the Japanese, they were too cautious - they were planning on the element of surprise and the reports coming in from the first attack wave confirmed success.

According to one book I have read and cannot remember the name* of the Japanese plan called for a submarine to fully enter PH just before the attack and confirm ALL the carriers were there. If the answer was no then the attack was to be delayed until all carriers were present. The sub captain was a chicken and popped his periscope up outside the harbor and claimed that all the carriers were present.

* The author was one of the Tokyo war crimes lawyers and the book had a headline grabbing title like "The Japanese Imperial Conspiracy". It had a lot of very interesting facts but also included some conclusions that only a lawyer** would make.

** My father in law was a very senior magistrate and said that lawyer is the Olde Englishe spelling of liar.

 

[MiTasol]

I can't envision any circumstances where the US would start a war with Japan.

Actually the US did start the Pacific war by blockading Japan and cutting off vital supplies Japan needed for its war in Manchuria.

Unfortunately the US thought that would cause Japan to curl up in a corner and cry. If they had been smart enough to ask themselves what would the USA do if Japan did that to us they would have known that PH or some other major event was just around the corner.

 

[Greg Boeser]

It is my understanding that high ranking US officials were actively trying to provoke an attack by Japan. They had chosen to fight Japan, but wanted the Japanese to attack first, to galvanize the American people. Moving the fleet to Hawaii, militarizing Wake Island, sending US flagged fishing vessels into waters claimed by Japan, sending B-17s to the Philippines, these things were designed to put pressure on Japan,and hopefully provoke an attack.

 

[GreenKnight121]

It is my understanding that high ranking US officials were actively trying to provoke an attack by Japan. They had chosen to fight Japan, but wanted the Japanese to attack first, to galvanize the American people. Moving the fleet to Hawaii, militarizing Wake Island, sending US flagged fishing vessels into waters claimed by Japan, sending B-17s to the Philippines, these things were designed to put pressure on Japan,and hopefully provoke an attack.

Yes, the conspiracy theories favor this interpretation.

 

[SaparotRob]

Did it work?