Ad: This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. More information in Terms and rules
The RAF just does not seem to bother with designating operational trial squadrons as such.
that is, if you consider two (IIRC) converted Mark VIIIs as "production" aircraft
I will have to consult my books Flyboy, if its very important - they are not available to me. But my opinion is that there is little to tell between an operational trial unit flying combat missions and a combat unit flying operational trials.The RAF just does not seem to bother with designating operational trial squadrons as such. All were called squadron, and I believe there were just a couple of "test flights" etc., usually for flying enemy equipment.
Here is an organogram of Einsatzverbände Me 262 (Einsatzverbände translated is combat units)
http://www.x19world.de/flieger/Uebersicht_Einsatzverbaende.jpg
cimmex
No, it shows it operating under it. Look at the LW structure today, its set up the same way and even has transport units under the same structure.and the organogram clearly shows that this Erprobungskommando is an Einsatzverband
cimmex
"Einsatzverbände" Joint Task Unit
"Erprobungskommando" Testing Command...
"Kommando - The use of the term in the World War II era Luftwaffe was for special units used to test new aircraft for combat readiness (as Erprobungskommando units) and examples existed that only used the "Kommando" name, such as the Luftwaffe Gruppe-sized Kommando Nowotny."
"On 19 April 1944, Erprobungskommando 262 was formed at Lechfeld just south of Augsburg, as a test unit (Jäger Erprobungskommando Thierfelder), commanded by Hauptmann Werner Thierfelder) to introduce the 262 into service and train a core of pilots to fly it."
Ref: Price, Alfred. The Last Year of the Luftwaffe: May 1944 to May 1945
Ref: Stapfer, Hans-Heiri. Walk Around #42: Messerschmitt Me 262 Carrolton, Texas: Squadron Signal, 2006.
I don't think that "einsatzverbande" translates very well as combat units. In fact I don't think there is an easy English translation. There is no equivalent word(s) to convey exactly the sense of the German word.
Cheers
Steve
I don't think that "einsatzverbande" translates very well as combat units. In fact I don't think there is an easy English translation. There is no equivalent word(s) to convey exactly the sense of the German word.
Cheers
Steve
Don't be a smart @ss - it is what it is, and I'll say it before, I didn't name these units. There was a reason whay these units were named "test units." Maybe you should research why they remained that way and were never given combat status until KG51 got their 262s...just curious when all the books will be corrected to follow your claim.
cimmex
I don't have a dog in this fight, which seems fairly pointless. An Erprobungskommando would certainly qualify as an operational unit by most definitions. Erprobungskommando 210 was one of the most successful Bf 110 units of the Battle of Britain.
Erprobungskommando (EKdo) 262 kept a war diary and the first claim was made on 19th July 1944 by Lt. Alfred Schreiber, a Mosquito. There are many more claims in the following weeks and months. This type of Luftwaffe unit was experimental but as part of the experimentation or proving they carried out combat operations. Whether that is "operational" or not is really just semantics. They were in combat, shooting down enemy aircraft.
This is quite unlike the sort of operations carried out by the RAF at Boscombe Down or Farnborough.
And that's where the road splits between the way the RAF did things. When the Meteor left Farnborough, it went on to a COMBAT squadron. The 262 combined both flight testing and combat introduction into one TEST unit. The first JG didn't see the aircrft until Jan., 45, as mentioned KG51 got theirs as early as July 45.
Exactly so. There is no equivalent to an Erprobunhskommando in the RAF because our testing or proving units do not undertake operations in the same way as was done in the Luftwaffe.
EKdo 262 was flying combat missions and shooting down enemy aircraft whilst claiming a lot more and keeping a war diary which is pretty much what operational units in most air forces do.
Or combining flight testing and combat evaluation into one task to save time, they were still a "test unit" by their given name.How would you define Erprobungskommando 210's operations against British airfields and radar installations if not operational? I suppose they were trying out new low level tactics, but on a different aircraft to the one they were supposed to be "testing" just to confuse things
This really is a question of how to define the term "operational". It does not mean the same thing for the Luftwaffe as it does for the RAF or USAAF. I have to say that it doesn't really matter how we classify a unit like EKdo 262. It was demonstrably carrying out operations against the allies whether we call that operational in the allied sense or not.
Cheers
Steve