A myth about the Me 262?

[FLYBOYJ]

it's hard to sum up really anything concrete on the Ekdo 262 unit as it was absorbed including what victories it had to Kommando Nowotny who scored maybe 22 kills and lost 28 or so 262's about 10 or so due to accidents. the story needs to be written about the Kommando

Exactly Erich! Kommando Nowotny eventually went away for one reason or another - I believe it's because "testing" was complete. Pilots and planes were eventually rolled into JG7 or other units and all the 262 testing units went away, they were now in real live "COMBAT" squadrons.

It seems KG51 followed the same path but entered combat earlier due to Hitler's insistence of the 262 being used as a bomber. I'm still curious about the initial 262s sent to the unit in late July, 1944. Did they sit on the ground or did they fly operationally? Training? KG51 did eventually fly bomber intercept missions, am I right?

 

[Erich]

Nowotny Kommando was dissolved in November of 44 after his death in combat, some sources say he was on landing approach others say no he got his with two P-51's in air combat from the 20th /357th fg's. the remainder of Nowotnys unit formed cadre-experienced for JG 7...

Joe I don't really have much on KG 51 yes it formed operations in 44 and gave US ground forces a headache just for the fact they were quick movers and US forces had to develop if they could adequate Flak defenses.

 

[stona]

In September 1944 EKdo 262 had a strength of 12 aircraft. Kommando Novotny was established with a strength of three staffeln of 16 aircraft each and a further 4 aircraft allocated to a Gruppenstab, which looks a lot like the structure of an early war Geschwader. In fact by October 1944 Kommando Novotny received 51 Me 262s.

KG 51 had converted to the Me 210 by the spring of 1944. It was decided that it would be the first unit to operate the Me 262 as a bomber. During May I./KG 51 was withdrawn from operations in the west to retrain on the Me 262. A new unit under the command of Major Wolfgang Schenk was established from I./KG 51. This was an Einsatzkommando or Operational Detachment designated Kommando Schenk. This unit was subservient to KG 51. By 10th July it had received 6 Me 262s and the first 12 pilots had arrived. Kommando Schenk was most definitely an operational as well as a training unit. It was sent to Chateaudun, with 9 aircraft on 20th July for operations against the invasion, though it was impossible to operate the aircraft as bombers. The saga of Kommando Schenk and attempts to reinforce it with elements of 3./KG 51 whilst in France make for sorry reading before its retreat to Belgium. I don't have time for the whole story now, but with reference to the Me 262's ability as a level bomber one report from Kommando Schenk was discouraging.

"In level flight the Revi was useless for accurate bombing. Pinpoint targets could not be hit. Kommando Schenk was therefore unable to claim any tactical successes."

Other operational elements of KG 51 continued to train on the Me262 and the unit was finally committed on 18th September following "Market Garden".

Cheers

Steve

 

[FLYBOYJ]

This was an Einsatzkommando or Operational Detachment designated Kommando Schenk. This unit was subservient to KG 51. By 10th July it had received 6 Me 262s and the first 12 pilots had arrived. Kommando Schenk was most definitely an operational as well as a training unit. It was sent to Chateaudun, with 9 aircraft on 20th July for operations against the invasion, though it was impossible to operate the aircraft as bombers.

If this was the case then KG51 was the first operational jet combat squadron, be it in a bomber role.

 

[Erich]

Nowotny's overstrength due to spares and some were not fit for combat...... of that 51 figure.

 

[stona]

It would have been if they could bomb! There is a long report from Fritz Wendel to the Directors of Messerschmitt explaining why they didn't.
Here's a few salient points:

Insufficient range as the airfield had to be more than 100Km behind the front. The undercarriage and tyres needed to be strengthened. More seriously, after the fitting of extra fuel tanks there were serious stability problems as the CoG shifted to the rear on dropping bombs. 2 of the nose guns had been removed to reduce take off weight and this exacerbated the problem. No bomb sight suitable for single seater and the pilots were not trained to use the Revi gunsight in a shallow dive. The maximum speed of 850kph (530 mph) for aircraft with fabric covered control surfaces was being exceeded and they needed to be changed for metal covered ones. The air frame needed various strengthening for extra fuel, speed above 850 kph, RATO etc,etc.

This is just another reflection of how far from being ready for operational service the Me 262 was in July/August 1944.

As the front collapsed the unit kept moving and its first combat operation was not until 28th August when seven Me 262s were sent against allied assembly points armed with AB 500 containers.

Shortly afterwards, as Kommando Schenk retreated again, this time from Juvincourt to Chievres, Ofw. Hieronymus Lauer's Me 262 was shot down/forced to crash by two P-47s of the 78th FG (Maj Joseph Mayers and Lt Manford Croy) becoming the first Me 262 to be claimed by allied fighters.

Cheers

Steve

 

[stona]

Nowotny's overstrength due to spares and some were not fit for combat...... of that 51 figure.

He was supposed to have an operational strength of 52 aircraft, he would need hundreds to get anywhere close to that. He often had a total of serviceable aircraft in single figures.

Serviceability rates for the Me 262 were woeful. As Kommando Schenk moved from pillar to post across France and the Low Countries it rarely had more than four or five serviceable aircraft and even fewer crews. That it mustered seven for its first real operation speaks volumes for the determination of its men in the face of adversity.
It's one of the reasons that in October the Kommando was effectively assimilated into I./KG 51.

Cheers

Steve

 

[Njaco]

Curious if the 262 was actually ahead of its time. As a dogfighter, it was inadequate because its agility wasn't spectacular. As a bomber, again it was suspect because of bombsite and speed. Was its design more suited to the missiles and tactics that evolved during the 1950s and 1960s?

 

[razor1uk]

Even the later JV 44 which had on its books (for political clout/mis-direction) upto 100 or more 262's pulled from many units (plus spare turbine blades for well over 150 jet engines) - of those supposed aircraft, most usually didn't survive delivery due to infrastructural attacks destroying them or their carraiges, or being unable to move them effectively in time by road delays.
Roughly JV 44 had a proposed unit strength per day of roughly 26 serviceable on (geshwader level) paper, of them, under half were actually fit for actual combat or training service if memory form the Battles Over Baveria book is close - mostly due to fuel issues, awaiting specific engine parts or needed being rebuilt for quality checks prio to fit for service by the maintenance men of JV 44 or JG7, also some newer jet pilots didn't have enough hours in their brief ground training, and so only those cleared pilots could fly in those actually usable aircraft.
Rushed late war manufacturing led to many a pilot dying before each of new /or repaired aircraft had to triple checked by the users erks/'blackshirts'/maintenance staff.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Is there any record of KG51 flying combat sorties on July 20, 1944?

 

[stona]

Is there any record of KG51 flying combat sorties on July 20, 1944?

It couldn't be with the Me 262 and couldn't be I./KG 51. That date is actually the day that the first six Me 262s and twelve pilots arrived at Lechfeld to start training. On the 20th July, when Kommando Schenk moved to France, the initial twelve trainee pilots had only four flights each on type.
As far as I know II./KG 51 was still operating its Me 410s at this time but whether they were in action or not I don't know.
Cheers
Steve

 

[Erich]

yes the 262 was ahead of it's time and made an impact on the war Nowotny had roughly 15 jets on hand due to the cout nof it's white numbered machines. again there is no sufficient data on the units activities.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

It couldn't be with the Me 262 and couldn't be I./KG 51. That date is actually the day that the first six Me 262s and twelve pilots arrived at Lechfeld to start training. On the 20th July, when Kommando Schenk moved to France, the initial twelve trainee pilots had only four flights each on type.
As far as I know II./KG 51 was still operating its Me 410s at this time but whether they were in action or not I don't know.
Cheers
Steve

Thanks for the info....

With that said, KG51 was still the first LW combat unit to operate the 262.

 

[Milosh]

I./KG51
7.44 - 6 Me 262A-1

II./KG51
10.44 - 2 Me 262A-2

Kampfgeschwader 51

 

[stona]

yes the 262 was ahead of it's time and made an impact on the war Nowotny had roughly 15 jets on hand due to the cout nof it's white numbered machines. again there is no sufficient data on the units activities.

Kommando Novotny received a significant number of aircraft in the second half of 1944. I will try and dig up a number tomorrow. The reason that so few were serviceable has been mentioned above, plus the fact that the Me 262 tended to kill its pilots quicker than the Luftwaffe could train them (see Kommando Schenk above) leaving all Me 262 units almost continually short of trained pilots.

Kommando Novotny was formed from the three Einsatzkommandos set up at Lechfeld, Rechlin-Larz and Erfurt-Bindersleben (to iron out technical problems and to develop tactics), and elements of EKdo 262 including its signal platoon.
EKdo 262 did not cease to exist. It's remnants were combined with remnants of III./ZG 26, which had been training under Messerschmitt at Leipheim, Swabisch Hall and Lechfeld, and hadn't formed part of III./ZG 6, to form a new EKdo 262.

Cheers
Steve

 

[stona]

Thanks for the info....

With that said, KG51 was still the first LW combat unit to operate the 262.

I would agree, initially in the guise of Kommando Schenk. Incidentally the ground support was drawn from 3./KG 51, so we can see that despite the separate name the Einsatzkommando operated under the control of KG 51 and was supported by and reported through that organisation.

I have been pondering the operational/non operational conundrum! I would say that the closest thing that the Luftwaffe had to the sort of trial and test organisations of the allied air forces for the Me 262 was an organisation called Erprobungstelle Rechlin. This organisation really did test the aircraft and different equipment in a scientific rather than combat environment.

Cheers

Steve