A myth about the Me 262?

[nuuumannn]

The RAF just does not seem to bother with designating operational trial squadrons as such.

Yep, the RAF didn't have test units of the same nature as Ekdo 262; new types were introduced into squadron service, where their issues were worked through at squadron level, often by a Flight. Since the war, pilots went through the Operational Conversion Unit in terms of training on a new type and generally that was introduced through the OCU, rather than straight to squadron service, although this applied to combat aircraft only. A number of the OCUs were formed by Flights of personnel evaluating a new type.

If we are still nitpicking over the difference between Ekdo 262 and 616 Sqn, the primary difference between the two is that 616 (South Yorkshire) Squadron was was an Auxiliary Air Force unit formed in 1938 and relinquished its Spitfire HF.VIIs for Meteor Is in 1944, so it was already a combat unit within the RAF structure and not formed specifically to trial the Meteor.

 

[nuuumannn]

that is, if you consider two (IIRC) converted Mark VIIIs as "production" aircraft

Just to clarify, there were actually six Mk.VIIIs ordered in late March 1943 and converted with the Griffon as trials aircraft for that powerplant, the 'Super Spitfire', the Mk.XVIII was also based on the 'VIII airframe and much was learned from these. Because of the excellent performance of the Griffon Mk.VIIIs and the predicted time of arrival into service of the Mk.XVIII, the first, JF316 became the prototype of the stop-gap, the Spit XIV. The first production 'XIV was RB140, which first flew in late 1943. A large number of Mk.VIII production aircraft were converted on the production line, as did Spit V production, which became Spit IXs. There was actually around nine months between the first flight of JF316 and RB140, the first production Spit XIV, which isn't all that long for trialling a new powerplant in wartime.

Back to the '262...

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I will have to consult my books Flyboy, if its very important - they are not available to me. But my opinion is that there is little to tell between an operational trial unit flying combat missions and a combat unit flying operational trials. The RAF just does not seem to bother with designating operational trial squadrons as such. All were called squadron, and I believe there were just a couple of "test flights" etc., usually for flying enemy equipment.

Actually they do with great distinction (as indicated in the posts above mine). The examples you have given seem to be different marks of aircraft already in service, a little different between a minor variant of an aircraft already in service and a newly developed airframe. As stated earlier, Germany lumped everything in to one unit, flight testing, combat evaluation, tactics, etc., but these were not operational "COMBAT" squadrons.

No matter how one wants to slice this KG51 was the first LW "COMBAT" unit to operate the 262.

 

[cimmex]

Here is an organogram of Einsatzverbände Me 262 (Einsatzverbände translated is combat units)
http://www.x19world.de/flieger/Uebersicht_Einsatzverbaende.jpg
cimmex

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Here is an organogram of Einsatzverbände Me 262 (Einsatzverbände translated is combat units)
http://www.x19world.de/flieger/Uebersicht_Einsatzverbaende.jpg
cimmex

"Einsatzverbände" Joint Task Unit

"Erprobungskommando" Testing Command...

"Kommando - The use of the term in the World War II era Luftwaffe was for special units used to test new aircraft for combat readiness (as Erprobungskommando units) and examples existed that only used the "Kommando" name, such as the Luftwaffe Gruppe-sized Kommando Nowotny."

"On 19 April 1944, Erprobungskommando 262 was formed at Lechfeld just south of Augsburg, as a test unit (Jäger Erprobungskommando Thierfelder), commanded by Hauptmann Werner Thierfelder) to introduce the 262 into service and train a core of pilots to fly it."

Ref: Price, Alfred. The Last Year of the Luftwaffe: May 1944 to May 1945

Ref: Stapfer, Hans-Heiri. Walk Around #42: Messerschmitt Me 262 Carrolton, Texas: Squadron Signal, 2006.

 

[cimmex]

and the organogram clearly shows that this Erprobungskommando is an Einsatzverband
cimmex

 

[FLYBOYJ]

and the organogram clearly shows that this Erprobungskommando is an Einsatzverband
cimmex

No, it shows it operating under it. Look at the LW structure today, its set up the same way and even has transport units under the same structure.

Kommando Einsatzverbände Luftwaffe

 

[stona]

I don't have a dog in this fight, which seems fairly pointless. An Erprobungskommando would certainly qualify as an operational unit by most definitions. Erprobungskommando 210 was one of the most successful Bf 110 units of the Battle of Britain.

Erprobungskommando (EKdo) 262 kept a war diary and the first claim was made on 19th July 1944 by Lt. Alfred Schreiber, a Mosquito. There are many more claims in the following weeks and months. This type of Luftwaffe unit was experimental but as part of the experimentation or proving they carried out combat operations. Whether that is "operational" or not is really just semantics. They were in combat, shooting down enemy aircraft.
This is quite unlike the sort of operations carried out by the RAF at Boscombe Down or Farnborough.

I don't think that "einsatzverbande" translates very well as combat units. In fact I don't think there is an easy English translation. There is no equivalent word(s) to convey exactly the sense of the German word.

Cheers
Steve

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Bump

"Einsatzverbände" Joint Task Unit

"Erprobungskommando" Testing Command...

"Kommando - The use of the term in the World War II era Luftwaffe was for special units used to test new aircraft for combat readiness (as Erprobungskommando units) and examples existed that only used the "Kommando" name, such as the Luftwaffe Gruppe-sized Kommando Nowotny."

"On 19 April 1944, Erprobungskommando 262 was formed at Lechfeld just south of Augsburg, as a test unit (Jäger Erprobungskommando Thierfelder), commanded by Hauptmann Werner Thierfelder) to introduce the 262 into service and train a core of pilots to fly it."

Ref: Price, Alfred. The Last Year of the Luftwaffe: May 1944 to May 1945

Ref: Stapfer, Hans-Heiri. Walk Around #42: Messerschmitt Me 262 Carrolton, Texas: Squadron Signal, 2006.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I don't think that "einsatzverbande" translates very well as combat units. In fact I don't think there is an easy English translation. There is no equivalent word(s) to convey exactly the sense of the German word.

Cheers
Steve

Einsatzverbande - "use associations"

 

[cimmex]

just curious when all the books will be corrected to follow your claim.
cimmex

 

[Tante Ju]

I don't think that "einsatzverbande" translates very well as combat units. In fact I don't think there is an easy English translation. There is no equivalent word(s) to convey exactly the sense of the German word.

Cheers
Steve

Einsatz = action, sortie, operation, engagement, to use, "throw into", employ for etc.
verbaende = units

Its quite literally operational units. "the units for action"

 

[FLYBOYJ]

just curious when all the books will be corrected to follow your claim.
cimmex

Don't be a smart @ss - it is what it is, and I'll say it before, I didn't name these units. There was a reason whay these units were named "test units." Maybe you should research why they remained that way and were never given combat status until KG51 got their 262s...

 

[nuuumannn]

Einsatzverbande

...as opposed to ersatzeier! Sorry, a little German pun!

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I don't have a dog in this fight, which seems fairly pointless. An Erprobungskommando would certainly qualify as an operational unit by most definitions. Erprobungskommando 210 was one of the most successful Bf 110 units of the Battle of Britain.

Erprobungskommando (EKdo) 262 kept a war diary and the first claim was made on 19th July 1944 by Lt. Alfred Schreiber, a Mosquito. There are many more claims in the following weeks and months. This type of Luftwaffe unit was experimental but as part of the experimentation or proving they carried out combat operations. Whether that is "operational" or not is really just semantics. They were in combat, shooting down enemy aircraft.

This is quite unlike the sort of operations carried out by the RAF at Boscombe Down or Farnborough.

And that's where the road splits between the way the RAF did things. When the Meteor left Farnborough, it went on to a COMBAT squadron. The 262 combined both flight testing and combat introduction into one TEST unit. The first JG didn't see the aircrft until Jan., 45, as mentioned KG51 got theirs as early as July 45.

 

[Njaco]

1944

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Yep! my bad

 

[stona]

And that's where the road splits between the way the RAF did things. When the Meteor left Farnborough, it went on to a COMBAT squadron. The 262 combined both flight testing and combat introduction into one TEST unit. The first JG didn't see the aircrft until Jan., 45, as mentioned KG51 got theirs as early as July 45.

Exactly so. There is no equivalent to an Erprobunhskommando in the RAF because our testing or proving units do not undertake operations in the same way as was done in the Luftwaffe.
EKdo 262 was flying combat missions and shooting down enemy aircraft whilst claiming a lot more and keeping a war diary which is pretty much what operational units in most air forces do.

How would you define Erprobungskommando 210's operations against British airfields and radar installations if not operational? I suppose they were trying out new low level tactics, but on a different aircraft to the one they were supposed to be "testing" just to confuse things

This really is a question of how to define the term "operational". It does not mean the same thing for the Luftwaffe as it does for the RAF or USAAF. I have to say that it doesn't really matter how we classify a unit like EKdo 262. It was demonstrably carrying out operations against the allies whether we call that operational in the allied sense or not.

Cheers

Steve

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Exactly so. There is no equivalent to an Erprobunhskommando in the RAF because our testing or proving units do not undertake operations in the same way as was done in the Luftwaffe.
EKdo 262 was flying combat missions and shooting down enemy aircraft whilst claiming a lot more and keeping a war diary which is pretty much what operational units in most air forces do.

For one reason or another, yes but their mandate was to still "test and evaluate" as well as train and develop tactics.

How would you define Erprobungskommando 210's operations against British airfields and radar installations if not operational? I suppose they were trying out new low level tactics, but on a different aircraft to the one they were supposed to be "testing" just to confuse things

Or combining flight testing and combat evaluation into one task to save time, they were still a "test unit" by their given name.

This really is a question of how to define the term "operational". It does not mean the same thing for the Luftwaffe as it does for the RAF or USAAF. I have to say that it doesn't really matter how we classify a unit like EKdo 262. It was demonstrably carrying out operations against the allies whether we call that operational in the allied sense or not.

Cheers

Steve

I think it's shown in my previous comment. The LW created test units that were conducting flight testing and combat evaluations at the same time, in the case of Erprobungskommando 210, probabaly to save time, in the case of the 262, out of necessity. By their own name they were test units, and for one reason or another were converted or re-assigned at a later date. Compare EKdo 262s operations with KG51 and it wasn't untill January 45 where the 262 was fully "let loose" to fighter (JG) squadrons. After that the test units rightfully went away. If EKdo was a bona-fide fighter squadron, why desolve it or even change its name?

 

[Erich]

it's hard to sum up really anything concrete on the Ekdo 262 unit as it was absorbed including what victories it had to Kommando Nowotny who scored maybe 22 kills and lost 28 or so 262's about 10 or so due to accidents. the story needs to be written about the Kommando