A myth about the Me 262?

[FLYBOYJ]

EKdo 262 was a test unit and not considered an operational COMBAT squadron - FACT! AFAIK first blood drawn by the 262 was July 26, 1944 when one from EKdo 262 damaged a Mosquito - FACT!

EKdo 262 did not start actively engaging enemy aircraft until mid August 1944 - they claimed 19 Allied aircraft for six Me 262s lost, never truly confirmed. Regardless, the -262 was staring to become an effective combat weapon.

616 squadron was an operational combat squadron and began Meteor I operations on or just after July 21, 1944 - FACT! 616 Squadron's first combat sortie was July 27, 1944 in an attempt to intercept V-1s. 616 Squadron's first victory did not occur until August 4, 1944 against a V-1. Meteors didn't operate from the continent until April 1945.

EKdo 262 was disbanded on 26 September 1944 and was formed into Kommando Nowotny, still a "trial and test unit." JG-7 was the first REAL LW fighter unit operating the 262 and that didn't happen until January 1945.

KG51 was the first REAL LW COMBAT unit operating the -262, they started operations with the Me 262A-2a (fighter bomber) August 1944.


I don't have a dog in this fight on which aircraft was "the first operational jet fighter," or the first "useful" jet fighter aircraft. The LW was obviously building, developing and testing the 262 under combat conditions as well as developing tactics on the fly (for better choice of words). The Meteor was not in the same heavy combat environment during its introduction, but by considering both air forces terminology of their units, the Meteor was the first jet fighter aircraft to be flown by an operational squadron.

No bickering and belitteling is going to change any of this!!!!

 

[cimmex]

a Luftwaffe unit commanded by a LW officer (Hauptmann Werner Thierfelder) and LW pilots flying combat calling as a not operational unit is really hard to understand. Would you call the "flying tigers" as a nonoperational unit too?
cimmex

 

[FLYBOYJ]

a Luftwaffe unit commanded by a LW officer (Hauptmann Werner Thierfelder) and LW pilots flying combat calling as a not operational unit is really hard to understand. Would you call the "flying tigers" as a nonoperational unit too?
cimmex

No - it was a bona-fide operational Unit in the Chinese Air Force, apples and oranges.

"The 1st American Volunteer Group (AVG) of the Chinese Air Force in 1941–1942" It was made up of 3 distinct COMBAT squadrons.

The LW, for one reason or another, gave these units their names and their status, not me.

For clarification...

Erprobungskommando (EKdo) "Testing-command"

Kampfgeschwader - Bomber (medium)

Jagdgeschwader - fighter unit or "wing"


"Kommando Nowotny was a Luftwaffe fighter Gruppe formed during the last months of World War II for testing and establishing tactics for the Messerschmitt Me 262 jet fighter, and was created and first commanded by Walter Nowotny, from whom it drew its name."

 

[Milosh]

Kommando Nowotny was formed on 26 September 1944 in Achmer and Hesepe with Stab/Kommando Nowotny from Stab III./Zerstörergeschwader 26 (ZG 26), 1./Kommando Nowotny from 9./ZG 26, 2./Kommando Nowotny from 8./ZG 26 and 3./Kommando Nowotny (new). Thus its strength was 3 Staffeln and a Stab flight.

On 3 October it attained operational status with a complement of about 40 Me 262A-1a jet interceptors.

This is the same general time period as when the Fw190D-9, Me109G-10 and Me109K-4 became operational.

 

[bada]

At that stage, with the very early engine .. depends on the altitude. At low level very fast, higher altitudes not so sp:

View attachment 240331

Naturally another Tony Williiams one from his website.

And now, go take the RAE repport on the same page and you'll see clearly in the repport that NO TEST could be done above 20K Ft because the engines surged in level flight.
Stop comparing the 262 to the meteor MKI/III. the meteor was not combat ready: snaking, snagging, surging, ailerons (great)heaviness,a not stable airplane at all, pilots having to slow down to be able to get the target in the sight. The meteor sucked untill the Mk8 . and the engines reliatibilty was not so great neither...even in 1946.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Kommando Nowotny was formed on 26 September 1944 in Achmer and Hesepe with Stab/Kommando Nowotny from Stab III./Zerstörergeschwader 26 (ZG 26), 1./Kommando Nowotny from 9./ZG 26, 2./Kommando Nowotny from 8./ZG 26 and 3./Kommando Nowotny (new). Thus its strength was 3 Staffeln and a Stab flight.

On 3 October it attained operational status with a complement of about 40 Me 262A-1a jet interceptors.

This is the same general time period as when the Fw190D-9, Me109G-10 and Me109K-4 became operational.

It was still a test unit (not my opinion, but what the LW called it), not a Jagdgeschwader and all this came AFTER 616 squadron was flying the Meteor MK 1 and after KG51 was flying the 262.

 

[Milosh]

Yes, just putting in some history and a time period for KdoN.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Yes, just putting in some history and a time period for KdoN.

Gotcha

 

[FLYBOYJ]

And now, go take the RAE repport on the same page and you'll see clearly in the repport that NO TEST could be done above 20K Ft because the engines surged in level flight.
Stop comparing the 262 to the meteor MKI/III. the meteor was not combat ready: snaking, snagging, surging, ailerons (great)heaviness,a not stable airplane at all, pilots having to slow down to be able to get the target in the sight. The meteor sucked untill the Mk8 . and the engines reliatibilty was not so great neither...even in 1946.

To be specific, neither aircraft was combat ready compared to piston engine aircraft of the day when they first entered service. The -262 was clearly the superior of the two but both aircraft were risky in normal non-combat operations, and that could be said right up to the end of the war.

 

[nuuumannn]

the Meteor was not combat ready: snaking, snagging, surging, ailerons (great)heaviness,a not stable airplane at all, pilots having to slow down to be able to get the target in the sight. The meteor sucked untill the Mk8 . and the engines reliatibilty was not so great neither...even in 1946.

Like the 262 - which did have so much more potential as a design than the Meteor, but the Meat Box's engines were more reliable than the Jumo 004s. Yep, you're right, there were certainly troubles with the 20 Meteor Is, - and the British knew these issues were delaying effective deployment of the jets - why do you think it took so long for the Vampire to get into service? It could out perform the 262, despite its straight wings and centrifugal flow engines.

Like I said, neither British jet was being rushed into service because the British played down the threat they assumed the German jets posed. They had that luxury. The Germans didn't.

 

[riacrato]

Blah blah blah superior technology blah blah blah would have won the war blah blah blah...

No they didn't. It did not prevent Germany losing the war, therefore it did not live up to its usefulness.

Yawn.
Where did i say or even remotely imply that? How about you check your own objectivity towards reality before you imply.me to be a Nazi fanboy. Have your useless little debate where I'm sure the conclusion will be that meteor in the end was just as useful / useless as the me 262 in ww2. I'm out of this forum.

 

[cimmex]

Like I said, neither British jet was being rushed into service because the British played down the threat they assumed the German jets posed. They had that luxury. The Germans didn't.

This is why it took till 1950 when the Vampire Fb 6 reached the performance of the Me262 of the year 1945. I read this info at the museum in Duebendorf Switzerland many years ago. Meanwhile the jet race was lost against the Americans…
cimmex

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I see this thread going downhill. Same usual people as always.

When I get back from Germany, if it has not remained civil, some posters will post no more...

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Yawn.
Where did i say or even remotely imply that? How about you check your own objectivity towards reality before you imply.me to be a Nazi fanboy. Have your useless little debate where I'm sure the conclusion will be that meteor in the end was just as useful / useless as the me 262 in ww2. I'm out of this forum.

Don't let the door hit you in the @ss on the way out.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

This is why it took till 1950 when the Vampire Fb 6 reached the performance of the Me262 of the year 1945. I read this info at the museum in Duebendorf Switzerland many years ago. Meanwhile the jet race was lost against the Americans…
cimmex

Instead of relying on a databoard at a museum, why don't you compare flight test data or the pilot's manuals for a more accurate comparison?

 

[cimmex]

Well, Switzerland had the Fb 6 in service and I think they should know what they are talking about. I have a top speed of 548 mph and clr below 5000 ft/min, which is not impressive for a 1950 plane. What does the pilot manual say?
cimmex

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Here's a link to an fb5, I'm on my way to work so I don't have time to find the fb6.

de Havilland Vampire FB 5 9 Pilots Notes vamp5pictures

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Here's an old thread where the Vampire/ 262 match up was beat to death with good comparisons of both aircraft with referances.

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/vampire-vs-me-262-a-11516.html

 

[fastmongrel]

Well, Switzerland had the Fb 6 in service and I think they should know what they are talking about. I have a top speed of 548 mph and clr below 5000 ft/min, which is not impressive for a 1950 plane. What does the pilot manual say?
cimmex

If you compare that performance to equivalent aircraft the Swiss could have bought in 1950 it was in the ballpark. The F80B was slightly faster, climbed about the same and I believe had a higher ceiling, the F84C was slightly faster but had a much worse climb rate and lower ceiling. Strangely the only aircraft that was faster in level flight, climbed faster and had a higher ceiling was the Meteor 8.

 

[davparlr]

If you compare that performance to equivalent aircraft the Swiss could have bought in 1950 it was in the ballpark. The F80B was slightly faster, climbed about the same and I believe had a higher ceiling, the F84C was slightly faster but had a much worse climb rate and lower ceiling. Strangely the only aircraft that was faster in level flight, climbed faster and had a higher ceiling was the Meteor 8.

It was in the ball park among first generation jets but in 1950 the F-86 and Mig 15 were both operational.