A myth about the Me 262?

[pattle]

What I don't know about strategy would fill books, but it does seem to me that if 262 was ever going to have any chance of halting the allied bombing campaign it would have had to have been available in numbers before things wound up by 1944. By that I mean the 262 might have retained air superiority for the LW, but I don't think it could ever have regained it.
My thinking is that, hypothetically, had the LW been able to send up, say, 200 262s with well trained pilots in 1944 they would undoubtedly have given the USAAF quite a mauling - for a while. But the 262s themselves would have become the prime object of Allied tactics. Allied fighters - which were never particularly vulnerable to the 262 - would have been swarming over LW airfields before and after raids. Bombing, including night bombing, would have been directed towards anything to do with it. I don't think 262 production could have stood that for long. I know German industry managed to re supply the LW with conventional aircraft even in the face of allied bombing, but I think the 262 would have been particularly vulnerable in this respect. It was far more time consuming to build than even the most advanced conventional fighters. It's engines required replacement every ten hours. In an operational sense, it shot itself down every two weeks or so. In the face of concentrated Allied attention, I think the 262, for all it's potential would have withered on the vine.
Now, if the 262 had been available in number before the daylight bombing campaign got under way, that might have been different. In fact I can feel a new thread coming on. I'm off to post it now.

This is exactly as I see things myself, and very well explained.

 

[Civettone]

Kris

sorry but I interviewed Späte as well as both Rudi Opitz's. the score was 12 claimed fewer confirmed by anyone for the ratsy Jg 400. the unit was worthless, don't even go any farther as this thread is on the 262 let's clear the air now start another one if you prefer on the Komet.

We had this discussion before. http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/best-bomber-killing-aircraft-398-51.html
Anyway, I have re-opened an older thread in case you want to give it another go.

Kris

 

[Civettone]

-

 

[Juha]

Jumo 004A engine used less chromium then DB605A engine.

Germany had plenty of nickel and molybdenum during 1943. That didn't change until Finland and Donetz Basin switched sides.

Not sure about tungsten. Do you have data on tungsten requirements for Jumo 004A and DB605A engines?

No, I cannot recall from were I read the reason of abandoment of 004A, but the material list is from Alfred Price's article on Me 262 in the International Airpower Review Vol. 23. Gunston only tells in his Engine book that 004B used only half of the amount of the strategic materials used in 004A, lost 100kg in trust but also in weight and was much cheaper to produce also in manhours.

Juha

 

[nuuumannn]

there was a lot of interest in rocket powered interceptors at the end of the war

Slightly off topic, yes indeed, there was. in fact almost all of Britain's first generation rocket engines were fuelled by high test peroxide, the British even continued using the terms 'T-stoff' and 'C-stoff' for a short while since some of the German scientists that went to Britain post war came from the Wather Werk at Hamburg. The use of rocket propulsion was seen at the best means of getting an interceptor to altitude as swiftly as possible in the new age of jet powered aircraft and the British released specification OR301 in 1952 for a rocket powered interceptor based on research conducted using Me 163s. Nothing ever flew to the OR, but the British also built and flew a mixed propulsion interceptor, the Saunders Roe SR.53 and had planned on a successor the SR.177, but this was cancelled in the 1957 Sandys Defence White paper.

 

[Balljoint]

http://www.enginehistory.org/German/Me-262/Me262_Engine_2.pdf

 

[FLYBOYJ]

http://www.enginehistory.org/German/Me-262/Me262_Engine_2.pdf

Great info! Found the link on the airframe...

http://www.enginehistory.org/German/Me-262/Me262_Airframe_2.pdf

 

[zoomar]

Looks like the author is leaning toward a little bit of revisionism...

Heinkel and Messerschmitt would have never collaborated, Heinkel was forever bitter towards Messerschmitt.[/QUOTE

It might be incorrect, but it's not revisionism. The basic argument that it was technological limitations, not politics, that delayed the Me-262 was made by William Green at least as early as the late 1960's. You are correct about Heinkel and Messerschmitt hating each other. I don't think the author is necessarily saying that collaborated together in creating the "conventional wisdom" but that they and Galland independently created aspects of the myth that politics and stupidity was the only reason jets were not introduced faster.

 

[nuuumannn]

The basic argument that it was technological limitations, not politics, that delayed the Me-262

The fact of the matter was that the Me 262 was not ready for the rigours of combat operations when it was introduced proves this somewhat. I don't hold much stock on the theory that the Germans could have had jet fighters in service earlier than they did because of politics etc for this reason; the ones they did put into service were not given enough time for all the troubles to have been sorted. Allied bombing placed strain on resources even in '43, which delayed Junkers from getting the Jumo sorted out; the first 262s were sitting about without engines owing to this delay. I shoulld remind readers (that haven't been through the other Me 262 thread going on at the moment) that the Gloster Meteor actually entered squadron service and was ready for such (despite issues with directional snaking - which also affected the 262 - and reliability of its cannon) before the Me 262. The first frontline jet fighter squadron in the world was 616 Sqn, which equipped with the Meteor I on 12 July 1944. At that time Me 262s were with Ekdo 262 and had been for only a few weeks earlier, which was not a front line squadron, but an evaluation unit. The 262 got to squadron service in October 1944 and even then, was not ready.

 

[riacrato]

Ekdo 262 did fly combat missions with the Me 262. All other is semantics.

 

[cimmex]

Ekdo 262 did fly combat missions with the Me 262. All other is semantics.

the EKdo 262 was built to approve the plane under combat situation. BTW what combat did the 616 Sqn have in july 1944, the early Meteor in summer 1944 was not much faster than a piston engined plane of that time.
cimmex

 

[OldSkeptic]

the EKdo 262 was built to approve the plane under combat situation. BTW what combat did the 616 Sqn have in july 1944, the early Meteor in summer 1944 was not much faster than a piston engined plane of that time.
cimmex

At that stage, with the very early engine .. depends on the altitude. At low level very fast, higher altitudes not so sp:

Naturally another Tony Williiams one from his website.

 

[vinnye]

From Wki - I also saw a prgram on TV about the RAF's early jets and this also said the jets were deployed to combat the V1's.

On 12 July 1944 the unit became the first RAF squadron to receive jet equipment in the form of Gloster Meteor Mk.I fighters, testing them at RAF Culmhead.[8] The first Meteor operational sortie was on 27 July from RAF Manston when it intercepted V-1 flying bombs launched against southern England. The first victories came on 4 August when one V1 was tipped over after a pilot's cannon jammed and another was shot down. The loss rate of the still unproven Meteor Mk.I was high, with three being written off in non-combat incidents between 15 and 29 August. Re-equipment with improved Meteor Mk.III's began in January 1945 and in February a detachment was deployed to Melsbroek near Brussels in Belgium. It was intended as a defence against Me 262's but in the event they did not ever face them. In early April the complete squadron moved to Gilze-Rijen in the Netherlands, commencing ground attack sorties on 16 April. The squadron was disbanded at Lübeck, Germany on 29 August 1945 by being renumbered to No. 263 Squadron RAF.

 

[DVH]

Whittle was ignored after forewarding a jet engine blueprint in the 1930s, so i guess no one saw the potential of this new and unproven technology.
Its easy in hindsight to see what jets achieved, but back then it would have taken a huge investment to develop something that may or may not pan out.

 

[nuuumannn]

Ekdo 262 did fly combat missions with the Me 262. All other is semantics.

Semantics, but facts, something often overlooked and ignored by many here on this forum. The fact is the Me 262 had the potential to be a world beater, but it wasn't for the simple fact that it was not ready for service. Too many here have an ideal view of this aircraft and perceive it to be something that it wasn't. There was a big difference between what it had the potential to be and what it actually was. It could not in its existing state live up to its potential and ultimately did nothing to prevent Germany from losing, which is what it was rushed into service to do; to quote you riacriato, "all other is semantics".

My point, the Meteor was better prepared for squadron service than the 262, even after evaluation with Ekdo 262. Also, the reason why the Meteor did not immediately go into service in Europe was because the RAF took things more cautiosly than the Germans; they could afford to take their time about introducing their jets into service, the Germans couldn't. Another thing also mentioned in the other thread is that the British began to play down the threat the German jets represented because their initial estimates of numbers of jets in service were too high. By late 1944, the RAF believed that the numbers of operational German jets could be contained by existing piston engined fighters and tactics to reduce any numerical advantage - to a degree the British were right. The Americans thought differently and continued attacks on jet production facilities throughout 1944.

Also, the Meteor I's performance is often criticised, but remember that the British were also getting the Vampire I ready for service, which was faster in level flight and climb than the Me 262. Why didn't it go into service sooner? Like I said, the British didn't want or need to rush it.

 

[riacrato]

yadayada

The Me 262 was flying combat ops before the Meteor did and soon in greater numbers than the Meteor too. Whether the unit is called EKdo or JG barely matters for the fact as such. The Germans had the first useful operational jet fighter in the world. No bickering and belitteling is going to change that.

 

[nuuumannn]

The Germans had the first useful operational jet fighter in the world.

Blah blah blah superior technology blah blah blah would have won the war blah blah blah...

No they didn't. It did not prevent Germany losing the war, therefore it did not live up to its usefulness.

 

[stona]

yadayada

The Germans had the first useful operational jet fighter in the world.

Useful is a moot point.
It was useful to the allies in killing large numbers of its pilots. It's operational usefulness is debateable. The figure someone quoted of a 20-30% serviceability rate is way too high. Units operating the type often reported low single figures of serviceable aircraft. JG 7 was down to four on several occasions. This needs to be taken into account when talking of "200 operational Me 262s".
Cheers
Steve

 

[nuuumannn]

No bickering and belitteling is going to change that.

No one is belittling the Me 262 - everything I've stated in my past posts in this thread is a fact. If you must know, I actually think it was faaaar cooler than the Meteor, but that doesn't change anything. It was what it was.

 

[stona]

No one is belittling the Me 262 - everything I've stated in my past posts in this thread is a fact. If you must know, I actually think it was faaaar cooler than the Meteor, but that doesn't change anything. It was what it was.

Yes, it had the potential to be a brilliant aeroplane. Germany had neither the time nor the means to make it so.

Cheers

Steve