Aces with 200+ victories: how do they stack up in 2012?

[Altea]

To check a pilots claims by checking the opponents losses you need accurate DAILY accounts.

I can see that the Soviets would need to know how many they were losing to replace them, but just how often would they need to report this information ?

J'm not an East-Front Specialist, but every day at 17:00 AFAIK at regimental Level, at 19:00 the repport had to be sent to division, the division to corps, and then corps to air armies and etc...
Note that there are no "lost" mentions in soviet reports, only "write-offs", for pilots and planes.

DAILY accounts are generaly inflated compared to "compilated loss records" established later, cause the same plane and pilot could "daily" be "written-off" for many different times. In general case "did not return", but recovered later.
There are famous examples of a soviet pilot (i don't remember the name) from the 12th IAP that was "lost" or "written-off" for 5 times in russian archives, even "died" two times in a burning plane. He was still living in 1997!

That kind of exemples are numerous, so i don't thinkany secund that archives were rewritten, in such a "brothel".

 

[drgondog]

After all 40% wasn't so bad, better than that of FC in 41-42 over France. IIRC LW day fighter claim accuracy against USAAF heavy bombers in Reich defence was about 50%.

Juha

So far, If Wood publication is correct I would agree that relative percentage when compared to actual losses of bombers that fell in German occupied territory. It becomes closer to 1.5 claims to actual when considering the aircraft salvaged upon returning to Allied territory - ditto fighters. Every deep dive I have made in examining LW credits versus allied loss records seem to point the trend. Our (USAAF) bomber claims never underwent the same scrutiny as the Fighter VC Boards in 8th and 9th AF - and no US combat unit elsewhere seem to have had the same scrutiny as 8th/9th except for AVG where cash was paid for a kill.

Having said this, the bombers did shoot down a lot of German fighters - but I suspect 1:10 to 1:15 would not be too far from actual and that would be on the high side for many battles..

It has been a point of curiosity for me that the Wermacht/LW recovery team reports were not used as a primary source of intitial confirmation..

 

[Juha]

About 80, just using the general overclaim of the Luft in times places he faught. Some other russian authors are estimating at about 120...

Hello Altea
do you remember names of those Russian authors. 120 is somewhat in line of the Khazanov's 80, when we remember that Khazanov used T's and C's book, with its many errors, as his source. My own guess, and it is purely a guess based only info from Russian researchers that they have not found victims to many of H's claims, was that Hartmann really shot down 120-240 planes, which is several times more than any Allied and Soviet aces. That and the fact that he lost only one wingman and his behaviour during his PoW time IMHO show that he was a great fighter pilot, whatever was the exact number of his kills.

[Hartmann was not in charge of shooting planes or killing citizens (at war it was natural) but in "destroying socialist economy". He had no special trial for himself and was dispatched in work brigades (to restore soviet economy) exactly as million of others unfortunate german, italian or other war prisonniers in SU, that were not famous and had even not claimed or asked for anything...

IIRC the normal prosedure was to charge German PoWs of crossing the border to USSR while armed, cannot remember was there also "with hostile intentions", and standard sentence was 5 years of hard labour.

Juha

 

[Juha]

...It has been a point of curiosity for me that the Wermacht/LW recovery team reports were not used as a primary source of intitial confirmation..

Yes, that is little odd. But Nick Beale once told that in Italy there was a case when intercepting a USAAF raid against their own a/f the defending LW unit overclaimed badly during the fight over and near the field , surprising thing was that all the claims were accepted, even if it would only has needed that one officer would has taken a car and drove through the neighbourhood of the a/f to notice that there were far fewer wrecks around than there should have been.

Juha

 

[FLYBOYJ]

About 80, just using the general overclaim of the Luft in times places he faught. Some other russian authors are estimating at about 120.




In real english "a known fact" from yours sounds rather an invented story from my imagination or doubtfull readings.
Hartmann was not in charge of shooting planes or killing citizens (at war it was natural) but in "destroying socialist economy". He had no special trial for himself and was dispatched in work brigades (to restore soviet economy) exactly as million of others unfortunate german, italian or other war prisonniers in SU, that were not famous and had even not claimed or asked for anything.

It's also true that due to food starvage when Lend Lease deliveries stopped, many of this forced labour went back to their countries. It was not Hartman's case, might be due to his publicity but, once again it was not the only one in that situation...




Hazanov's work was extremly criticized from JY Lorant and Hans Ring, when he compared Hartman claims taken from this book to russian archives, that appearded to be very unreliable, and far from the truth of Hartman's career as it is noticed in german archives*.



Keep them for yourself next time, if it's fake money...
Regards

*I think Lorant and Ring much more trustable than Oliver and Constable, i accept to be criticised for that...

Altea - don't be a smart@ss - tone down your attitude or your time here will be short - I'm only going to tell you this once!!!!

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Hello FlyboyJ

The Russian researcher was Khazanov and his main error was to use claim list in T's and C's Blond Knight as his source of Hartmann's claims. Because that list is so error-ridden it was easy to show errors in Khazanov's article. That also say much on T's and C's book. Now if prosecuters used number 342 in Hartmann's trial, that in fact proof nothing on Hartmann's claim accuracy, Soviets probably would not have bothered to try to find out the number of H's real victories, that would have needed much hard work, for a show trial. That number would has been only clever move from prosecuters, using German figure would has made it hard to Hartmann to dispute it. On the bounty, was there one or is that just one of the myths made by T C? The fact is that Soviet pilots were paid for accepted kills anyway. IIRC the most realist part of the book is the description of H's life in POW camps, he was very harshly treated but he didn't break.

Juha

Toliver did his best to report accurate information and I doubt any of his inital works on Hartman was to be sensationalized unlike some authors of the era (Cadin). He was a USAF Fighter Pilot and was always highjly respectable in his work and within the fighter pilot community. Remember he was among the first western writers to bring Hartman's story to the aviation community and be rest assured for such early work (almost 50 years ago) I doubt there was much exaggeration or myth play

 

[Altea]

Altea - etc

OK! sorry 8)
I will not use irony/humour anymore
But you can keep it civil, and make your moderator's job without any use of insults or profanity, at least

 

[Njaco]

Altea, you just got an infraction for that smart-a$$ remark. Keep it civil, bring facts and stay on topic.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Thanks FlyboJ. I'll stick with 352 for Erich and let it go at that.

I do as well. Not because I believe that is the number he shot down. I think it was less, the fog of war makes that almost a fact. But I, nor anyone else can prove his real number, so I will stick with 352. Even if you were take some of his victories away, he would still be the leading ace anyhow. He is the Ace of Ace´s.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

OK! sorry 8)
I will not use irony/humour anymore
But you can keep it civil, and make your moderator's job without any use of insults or profanity, at least

NO - you're in MY sandbox and if you don't like it here, pack your bags and take a hike. I warned everyone earlier to keep it civil and I find your humor tasteless. You act like an idiot here, you'll be treated like an idiot. Now get back on this discussion or you're out of here!!!!!

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

[


Keep them for yourself next time, if it's fake money...

Regards

You will be critizised for that. If you don´t want to read what someone posts, then just ignore it. No need to be a rude and pompous ass! You want to act like that, then do it someplace else.

Just my 2 cents - spend it wisely as well.

OK! sorry 8)
I will not use irony/humour anymore
But you can keep it civil, and make your moderator's job without any use of insults or profanity, at least

So it is okay for you to insult him, as you did? Oh I forget, you call it humour...

All he did was respond to your insult of him. Treat others as you wish to be treated. If you attack someone, it will come back on you times five. If you attack a moderator, it will come back on you times ten...

Now lets get this thread back on topic!

 

[GregP]

Hi DerAlder1stGelanget,

Like you, I doubt the 352 number is totally correct, but it IS official.

Unlike some others in here, I think Erich hartmann was a pretty straight guy, and I doubt he overclaimed intentionally. I see a lot of respect in here for Barkhorn and Rall, but seeming disrespect for Hartmann, and I think that may simply be from not liking the number one guy, who knows?

What I've been trying to say all along is that if anyone can prove overcaliming then we can adjust the record but, otherwise, let's stick with 352 until someone cares enough to dig into it and come up with verifiable differences.

 

[Altea]

Hello GrepP

Please! If you did that much research, you'd HAVE THE DOCUMENTS, or copies of at LEAST the parts that support your claims, and could post at least some of what you found that verified your claims. Otherwise we have someone who wants to change the official WWII record by making noise about Erich Hartmann's supposed overclaiming on the internet. People lie on the internet every day and also on televisione every day.

I don't have the doc anymore, but for instance considering Tony Wood lists, on june the 7th Hartman obtained 7 kills over airacobras.
In Iassy aera there were 2 fighter divisions using Cobras, the 9 GIAD and the 205 IAD. Looking at (f22 GIAD op1, d18 provided TsAMO doc) by a forumer in russan vif forum in 2004, the 205 IAD had no losses at all on that day.
The Pokryshkin's (9 GVIAP op1, d22 had two combat losses for the day,
The l-nt Dushanin from the 16th GIAP, that damaged plane made force landing over his territory, plane destroyed. And Buzdin from the 104th IAP, did not return: plane wrote-off, pilot excluded from the lists.
Final faith of this secund pilot is unknown to me, he may return later in unit, with or without his plane later, or may-not...

Considering that germain had also 11 other confirmed claims to 7 hartamn ones, there is some overclaim i would say.

Are the losses list complete? I can't garantee for myself, but from "Nitsh" and "alshem" and "ramstein" (don't know their real names) there are no blanks on both division at all from 1st to 31th july 1944. I mean the balance account = 0 with deliveries/losses of planes and pilots.

Now if the losses lists are complete: are they reliable? This is another debate. I hope thet more of TsAMO archive would be avalaible on line, some already are.

Regards

 

[Vincenzo]

i'm sure that 352 is not correct so i not stay with 352, okl credited 352 is a fact, idk how many planes him shoot down but also if they are only 80 true planes shoot down (and i don't think so few) he is a Ace of Ace's,

 

[Njaco]

Unless your score is one kill, I don't think ANY kill credits from WWII are correct because of a myraid of reasons. But the official record is 352 and like I respect any other pilot and his record, I will respect Hartmann's score and accept 352.

And as stated earlier, why is everyone focusing on Hartmann when there numerous other pilots with high scores? Just because he scored the most?

 

[PJay]

I wonder how much the WW2 practice of recovering aircraft for repair or recycling will affect future Aviation Historians. Another layer of records to chase down.

Or perhaps these records are already used?

 

[Vincenzo]

Unless your score is one kill, I don't think ANY kill credits from WWII are correct because of a myraid of reasons. But the official record is 352 and like I respect any other pilot and his record, I will respect Hartmann's score and accept 352.

And as stated earlier, why is everyone focusing on Hartmann when there numerous other pilots with high scores? Just because he scored the most?

That i told for Hartmann it's right for all. obviously not all are Ace of Aces

 

[Altea]

Now lets get this thread back on topic!

Let's go, but without other misunderstanding!

So it is okay for you to insult him, as you did?

No. It's OK for "i understand"
It's sorry for "i apologize"
8) for cool down, it was not intentionnaly done
For people that english is not "native or common langage" it's sometimes hard to feel the coarse of some expressions. In all sincerity.

If you attack someone, it will come back on you times five.

And if you jostle involuntary me in the bus, i should do what? Break you legs, squash your head?

Anyway, if i heart somebody, moderator or not i feel sorry, but nothing is justifying the overinflation of coarseness and insults.

With all my respects...

Back to Hartman, i'm against personnal attacks, since it's impossible to state that during big fights involving a lot of planes and pilots, that his personnal claims are wrong, but right for the other Luftwaffe pilots.
At least it needs much more reaserch and proves.
There is some important overclaim in the eastern front for both sides. Not sure that is was only Hartman's fault.

Now publishing an attack on Hartman, in a famous french magazine and a vindication to Rall approximatly in the same time, who maybe overclaimed the same even more (who knows?) seems unfair to me.

 

[Juha]

Toliver did his best to report accurate information and I doubt any of his inital works on Hartman was to be sensationalized unlike some authors of the era (Cadin). He was a USAF Fighter Pilot and was always highjly respectable in his work and within the fighter pilot community. Remember he was among the first western writers to bring Hartman's story to the aviation community and be rest assured for such early work (almost 50 years ago) I doubt there was much exaggeration or myth play

T's and C's book is unreliable source, not necessarily because of errors by writers. For ex Mason's Battle over Britain, which was a groundbreaking book in late 60s is now unreliable source because research has gone ahead and we know much more than in 60s, not because of that Mason was/is poor aviation historian. I recall reading/hearing somewhere that Hartmann wasn't overly enthusiant on T's and C's project and gave somewhat lukewarm support to it, so T and C had to fill up some blanks from other sources. And of course they didn't have access to Soviet archives so Soviet part of the story is based on what Germans knew/thought they knew/wanted to tell on that side of the story. And the stories of the bounty and trial not necessarily originated from Hartmann.

Juha

 

[Juha]

...Unlike some others in here, I think Erich hartmann was a pretty straight guy, and I doubt he overclaimed intentionally. I see a lot of respect in here for Barkhorn and Rall, but seeming disrespect for Hartmann, and I think that may simply be from not liking the number one guy, who knows?...

I don't know why it is that Russian researchers had difficulties to find suitable victims to many claims of some LW aces but not to claims of some others. There might well have been intentional overclaiming at least in one case but in Hartmann's case it might well have been mostly simply because of his tactic plus somewhat too great confidence to his shooting ability. Why is usually more difficult question to answer than what. But anyway both Barkhorn and Lipfert time to time fought prolonged dogfights so their tactical outlook was a bit different. Lipfert seems to have been a modest man who was liked also by minor axis pilots. I have read the Rall's memoirs but cannot recall his tactical thinking but I got the impression that he was a modest man when I was listening him when he made his first visit to Finland. And I don't have anything against Hartmann why should I?

Juha