FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Exactly - I think before his death Toliver did acknowledge some of this. Again, he was the first to take a stab at it at a time where resources were limited compared to today.
Aces with 200+ victories: how do they stack up in 2012?
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Exactly - I think before his death Toliver did acknowledge some of this. Again, he was the first to take a stab at it at a time where resources were limited compared to today.
I'd not be so chategorial, few minor FiAF aces didn't overclaim but yes, in the claims of all our top aces there are in varing degrees cases to which researchers have not found suitable Sviet losses.
Now for ex I'm not focusing on Hartmann, in my first message to this thread I didn't even mention him
Juha
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
You couldn't let it go, could you?!?!? Now go sit in the corner, see you in a few weeks
Hat off to trail-blazers. For ex Mason revitalized BoB research by his book, of course the BoB film had its effect too. But Mason showed that by using all available material from both sides there was possibility to reconstruct the BoB with reasonable degree of accuracy.
Juha
GregP
Major
Everyone is saying that if the pane is recovered, it is not a loss. That may be true fron the standpoint of the air force that owns it, but is si still a victory for the pilot who shot it down.
So ... losses may actually not add up to victories. Whether or not the aircraft was recovered, it still SHOULD be a victory for the pilot if he shoots it down and it crashes or is forced to land dead stick.
So ... losses may actually not add up to victories. Whether or not the aircraft was recovered, it still SHOULD be a victory for the pilot if he shoots it down and it crashes or is forced to land dead stick.
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Edgar Brooks
Senior Airman
A damaged aircraft uses resources for its repair, just as a wounded serviceman, in a hospital bed, uses more resources than a (buried) body.
This talk of down-grading a man's score is always rather disturbing, since what is it meant to achieve? Will the "researcher" feel a sense of achievement, because he's (in his mind) made that person less of a hero to his country of birth? Will any man, who put his life on the line, day after day, fighting for his country, actually be less of a hero, to his countrymen women? One intriguing question, when this sort of subject appears (again,) is what will the researcher do, if he finds out that there's been a miscount, and the pilot's score is actually higher than was originally thought? Will he immediately say so (the sign of a true researcher, in my view,) or keep it quiet?
This talk of down-grading a man's score is always rather disturbing, since what is it meant to achieve? Will the "researcher" feel a sense of achievement, because he's (in his mind) made that person less of a hero to his country of birth? Will any man, who put his life on the line, day after day, fighting for his country, actually be less of a hero, to his countrymen women? One intriguing question, when this sort of subject appears (again,) is what will the researcher do, if he finds out that there's been a miscount, and the pilot's score is actually higher than was originally thought? Will he immediately say so (the sign of a true researcher, in my view,) or keep it quiet?
As with any research subject there's people who follow a certain trail with an agenda. Maybe Khazanov is such a person, maybe he is not. If his research was faulty and skewed, there's peers who will review it and shed light on the matter. That's how it works and it's completely valid to ask questions about the past in the light of new evidence. National sentiments aside.
Attempts to discredit Hartmann come across as stinginess and sour grapes. The character and ability of the man comes across in the 1400 missions he flew during which he never lost a wingman. His character comes across when he refused to abandon his unit and the men that needed him to join Gallans elite jet squadron. It comes across in refusing to break under soviet torture and admit to fake war crimes, or indict others for fake crimes or become a trophy commie convert. He returned from over 10 years of captivity, which few survived, to his wife with his baby daughter dead. He then gave years of service to the Luftwaffe and USAF. Finally pushed out of the Luftwaffe because he smelled something up re the Locheed F 104 "bribe of the century".
If Hartmann claims 353 victories then he is correct because the integrity of his character is proven by any standard.
If Hartmann claims 353 victories then he is correct because the integrity of his character is proven by any standard.
Well, that's a well known problem, IMHO they are victories, some researchers agree some disagree. Probably most affected by that problem were liquid cooled SE planes fighting over their own territory. IMHO probably most affected in aircombat with this were Spitfire and 109 because their rather big wing mounted radiators.
Juha
IMHO researchers are trying to find out the truth, answering question "what really happened". Standard old fashioned history stuff. I don'y know on Khazanov but for ex Egorov and Dikov are not concentrated on the number of kills achieved by x, y and z, but what really happened during the war years, the kill accuracy info is just a byproduct from very thorough work at archieves.
Some seem to think that the number of kills are the measure of man's worth, I disagree.
Juha
Now H lost one wingman in 45 but he was clearly a man who cared for his wingmen, very appreciatedly trait. IIRC he flew well over 800 combat sorties, but one see both that and 1400 as number of his sorties.
Now ability to withstanding harsh treatment, ability to stand firm behind one believes and ability to claim accurately are different facets of personality. Having one doesn't mean that one has another.
Juha
Mr Juha
1)That wingman was a former bomber pilot that executed poorly fighter manouvers. Any way he parachuted safely.
2) Mr Juha if some historians claim that Hartmann had actually 280 kills instead of 352 , they discuss his ability to claim with accurancy
But if some ishorians claim that he had 80 or 120 kills instead of 352,then they discuss his honor and his character. Because such big mistake can be only intentional. Liars are liars in every aspect of their lifes.
3) However there are things that raise questions about Hartmann. For example his low claims of bombers and Il2s , or his avoidance of low level combat. Thats quite serious because Lw s primary role was to support and defend the army, . If you shoot down all the escorts but the bombers do their job undisturbed you have failed your mission .
rank amateur
Airman 1st Class
I don't know much about Herr Hartmann but I do know he was more or less used for propaganda means where he was portrayed as the inspiring heroic boy next door who almost single handed was defeating the bolshewist armada's. In that respect he was a lot more atractive than some one like Barkhorst. Nothing he could do about it though but could it be possible that in that light the Luftwaffe was a bit less critical when it came to judging his claims?
Just a thought
1) Yes I know
2) not necessarily, as I have wrote, AVG (American Volunteer Group) got rewards for 297 Japanese a/c destroyed but according to Japanese sources they destroyed only 115. I'd not describe them as liars, they used best possible tactic against Japanese but just that tactic might well led to overclaiming. Hartmann used same sort of tactic, it might well be with same level of overclaiming. As I wrote, some Germans also dogfight with VVS fighters, Lipfert surely and Barkhorn at least time to time, staying longer with contact with enemy, while risky, might well improve claim accuracy. In fast moving dangerous situation, where one could not follow long what happened to his target because that would have been too risky, overclaiming is natural and target fixation easily fatal. There were few cases of intentional frauding but one very easily overclaimed unintentionally. Are you claiming that LW fighter pilots in during the BoB were liars or RAF fighter pilots in 1941-42? I don't, aircombat is very fast moving and very stressing to most pilots. There were exeptions, who had exeptional situation awardness and very realistic assesment on their own abilities who were very reliable claimers and few AFs had very effective system of debriefing, which was vital to accurate claiming, more so than that that some byrocrats decided several months later 1000 km away was a claim valid or not based on paperwork made soon after claim. Germans didn't normally use gun cameras. German system had its good points but also its weaknesses.
Juha
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Njaco
The Pop-Tart Whisperer
I think what he is saying Juha is that an updated score that may be +/- 50 or so kills can be reasonable but a large discrepancy reflects more on the character of the pilot and not innocent claims. That is something we really don't tolerate. Thats Revisionist History at its worst.
Hello Njaco
so what is your explanation to LW fighter pilots' overclaiming during the BoB or RAF fighter pilots overclaiming in 41-42?
Juha
Njaco
The Pop-Tart Whisperer
Or USAAF 8th AF in '43-44? More action = more mistakes. Its the nature of the business and really not an exact science. I can take whatever fudging the numbers that appears - unless its blatant. But I will also accept what the record books say. Hartmann = 352. 'nuff said. And at this stage of the game, does it really matter?
It's not really matter, more like Trivial Pursuit level question, much more important was what III./JG 52 really achieved. Or for ex when one Russian researcher noted that amongst others Horst Ademeit's claims were accurate, one Polish researcher noted that a JG54 veteran claimed that Adameit claimed victories of his young wingmen as his own. IMHO did Ademeit "steal" his wingmen claims or not is impossible to clarify anymore and much more important is that Ademeit's Rotte was very effective also in real world.
Juha
